Thursday, 24 July 2008
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Can Women Be Church Leaders?
Christie started a thread in our forum about women and church leadership. She says, "My church has women pastors/leaders in it, and I was wondering if that was biblically wrong."Some people cited 1 Timothy 2:11-14 ("A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man"), others argue that the verse should be interpreted in accordance with the culture at the time. Still others say that the verse isn't about leadership at all, but rather about church etiquette.
How do you feel about women choosing to be ministers? Does your church have female pastors or women in high leadership positions?
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Comments (134)
i don't want women to "rule" over men. i want equality, that's all i'm saying. and i figure, in order for equality to exist, we need to give men and women the same opportunities, whether they choose to take them or not. and i resent the fact that since i dropped the word "feminism" in there, you seem to think i'm capable of corrupting children and beating men.
Yes, we must folllow the bible ... no argument there. But in my studies, I have more than a few times been set straight by good female writers. Kierkegaard is my favorite theologian, with a few other males coming in second, third, etc., but I read "First Things Magazine" regularly, and I know I have read several females who stand out, and who have brought me to a better understanding of the truth than I felt I could have gotten from anyone else at that particular moment, on that particular subject.
My wife promised to trust and obey me, and I promised to love and cherish her, and that's clearly the way it should be, while I listen carefully to her every command, and do everything she says. That is my joy and my love.
By the way, it is now 6:54 in South Korea, and my wife, heroine of my life, just pumped out my fourth son for me, while I held her hand, sang Swing Low Sweet Chariot, wiped her brow with my free hand, ate whole grain bread, nibbled some smoked cheese from COSTO, and kept peppering the nurses with questions to make the relax and smile.
His name? Jonathan David. My wife wanted that name. I thought Christian Shakespeare would be fine but defered to Wifey. Isn't that the way it should be, anyway?
We have a saying from the South, "If Momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." Thus speaketh Southern Appalachian Culture.
Wow, there was a lot of venom behind some of those comments! It is really important to remember that God is a God of order and balance. Jesus sought out women, he commended them, Paul commended their service and they were viewed as a vital part of the army of God. Sadly, the feminist movement has had a boom-a-rang effect on our society and instead of promoting women it has not brought a further curse upon their heads. It seems that any woman of strength, integrity and power is now viewed as "usurping" a man's authority and that may not be in her heart at all. I think that we need to be very careful in judging the motives of Christian women who carry an annointing by God.
The sweetest places of worship that I've attended is where there is a mutal respect in submitting one to another as each one is submitted to Christ and His Spirit. There was no vying for position or power, just a sweet humility that we are all working together to further the kindgom of God. The women weren't seeking authority and the men didn't use their authority to limit the Spirit moving. They came together at the foot of the cross and each one listened to what God was speaking. There was freedom because the Spirit of the Lord was present, welcome and able to move in each life unhindered by legalism. There was a pure, sweet and child like trust in God's ability to knit each one together for His purposes.
All that to say, I believe that God has established an order within His body and the home. However, I see in Jesus' life and ministry the balance that we are lacking today. It is easy to fall into what I call the "pendulum syndrome." When society swings one way really far, the church has to be cautious that we don't react by swinging the pendulum too far the other way and cut out half of God's army! That is why I come back to the word and seeking the balance that Jesus taught, lived and presented to His people.
To me that balance, in this subject, is provided in part by the disciples argument about who was going to be the greatest in God's kingdom. Jesus picked up a small child and said, "Here ya go!" Do you know how many times God has used a child to speak some of the greatest truths I needed to hear? However, we would totally disagree that a child should have ANY say in spiritual matters. We need to be very careful.
Balance brings humility, respect and an open heart to receive God's word, regardless of the vessel He chooses to use. I believe that the word, Jesus' life and His ministry resounds that message.
@Koolou@xanga -
Well, I agree with you. I was referring to "own" as in those men who treat their wives like property, not like partners. You know...the crazy kind you see on Maury who won't let their wives do anything without their permission.
@Schristian@xanga -
Actually, "The God who Wasn't There" does mention Osiris. From the portion of the film I just watched on YouTube, it does bare more of a resemblance to the whole "Jesus Mysteries"/"Christ Conspiracy" literature than I remembered. Perhaps it was another film that delved more into the more general and vague archetype argument (granted, I didn't see the whole film just now, so maybe they get into that later).
Granted, my impression of "The Jesus Mysteries" (which actually referenced sources, unlike most internet videos you'll come across) left me unimpressed. When I looked up many of these sources on my own (reading from Euripdes, Celsus, Plato, etc.), I just wasn't seeing the correlations, and many times the authors were really stretching the meaning of what those ancient writers had said. That's one reason why I would like to hear one's sources, since I've been unable to find any primary sources or scholarly secondary sources that would really vouch for these claims.
@thechris38@xanga - I found a couple of links on the web that might lead you in the direction I was leaning in:
Horus vs. Jesus
"The Christian myths were first related of Horus or Osiris, who was
the embodiment of divine goodness, wisdom, truth and purity...This was the
greatest hero that ever lived in the mind of man -- not in the flesh -- the
only hero to whom the miracles were natural because he was not human."
Youtube: Horus Vs. Jesus
I'll have more for you in a bit.
@abchurch006@xanga - Amen. And thanks for the comments.
@aka_RESi@xanga - "..although i must say there are some women who really do want to have all the control. but i especially do not believe that this produces children who become insecure with their sexual identity. i do not even see a link there! and 'healthy examples of their gender, & the role they play in marriage and the family'
"..how about simply a general healthy example of how a good person should act!? which would also include nonviolence for any reason."
That is exactly what I am talking about. Children learn by observation. Without consistently clear and healthy examples of both genders, the male child will not adequately learn how to become a healthy man, husband and father, nor how to recognize and interact with a healthy woman. The reverse is also true for women, though the results are often not as obvious.
As for nonviolence for any reason. I think that is unrealistic idealism. While men should learn that violence should only be employed in defense of self or that of others, it should nevertheless be taught as an option as that is a part of men's role in relationships and in society.
"there are probably also children who come from parents who do not have this domination issue and still struggle about their sexual identities, and at the same time there are probably those whose parents fight all the time and dont have any sexual identity issues. and what about those who only come from single parent families??"
Of course there are exceptions to virtually every rule. But that doesn't negate the reality of the rule itself.
-For more information on this subject, please check out my post: Sexual Identity Confusion.
I would also like to add that even gender roles are only as good as the people involved in the relationship. It all comes down to love, which cannot be legislated, or learned as a formula. But it is my belief that love comes far easier, remains longer and is far more productive in a relationship when there is less friction and striving for power. And that happens best when each persons knows and embraces their separate gender role. Further, I believe that in such a clearly-defined and loving relationship, those involved will find that they do not feel the need to dominate the other person.
There is a world of difference between being dominate, vs being dominating.
"Also you say that 'woman are more open to angelic influence than men" ..now, mistake me if i'm wrong but 'angelic influence' sounds like a good influence to me. angelic. angel. heaven sent?"
According to the Bible there are good angels and bad angels. And the bad ones can appear as the good ones. "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve." - 2 Corinthians 11:14 & 15.
In fact the name of Lucifer (the original name for Satan) itself means 'light-bringer.'
"And like that other person said, i do not believe that a man being the 'head of the woman' necessarily means that they have complete authority & dominance over them."
Well, according to the Bible, in effect it does and it doesn't. God is a God of order, not disorder or chaos. However, again, it all comes down to love. Where there is love, there is grace. And where there is grace, there is liberty from legalism, which cannot by itself please God, or ultimately bear good and lasting fruit. But love does not coexist with fear, envy or strife.
Does that mean the man should treat his wife like a slave, no. That is not love. Am I suggesting a woman should have to endure abuse? Of course not. Does it mean they cannot get a divorce? No, even Jesus admitted as much. But what did He say on that subject?
"Jesus replied, 'Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.'" - Matthew 19:8 & 9.
"Finally, why would you say that it is men who are suppressed in society? I dont believe thats true. Perhaps it seems that they are suppressed because more women are becoming so independent and are standing up for themselves and their rights, at least in the U.S. There are still inequalities between men and women in the world, with men having the advantages."
Actually I do believe this is true. Relationally, socially and legally women hold far more power than men. Additionally women have become united against men for this very purpose. It isn't about (legal) equality anymore, but about women attaining power, domination over men in relationships and in society. In effect reversing the roles of men and women; ie, gender roles.
The notion of legal equality is essentially moot. It is no longer an issue in this country. However, what women want (and have achieved) is social and relational power. Although, there are areas where women would seem to be biased against, there are areas where men are as well.
Like it or not, men and women are different, created for different roles, both in marriage, in the workplace and in society. To ignore that fact, or to try to change it is to do so to all our detriment. To try to say that men and women are the same in all ways, (which is not the same as equality; whether legal, intrinsic, or any other) is to invite chaos, confusion and strife.
I have been raised to believe that women should not be in government in the church however apparently leadership is ok. I am a farely logical person and I am searching for the truth of what God is saying through the humans he used to communicate it(the Bible). Most issues I've had and things I don't understand about God and the Bible have been shown to me through logical reason, natural evidence. God's reasons for why He tells us to and not to do things are everywhere .... Except with this one. I just can't figure out why we women can't be in government. We are definately capable. And we were created in Gods image as well. the verses that I have read which say we can't just never give me a reason, and thats just not like God, at least how I've experienced Him.
Can anyone tell me why? I am honestly searching, and please don't give me that women are too emotional/nurturing bit. In the family I grew up in my mom was WAY more emotionally stable then my Dad, and he was an elder in our church.