Thursday, 24 July 2008
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Can Women Be Church Leaders?
Christie started a thread in our forum about women and church leadership. She says, "My church has women pastors/leaders in it, and I was wondering if that was biblically wrong."Some people cited 1 Timothy 2:11-14 ("A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man"), others argue that the verse should be interpreted in accordance with the culture at the time. Still others say that the verse isn't about leadership at all, but rather about church etiquette.
How do you feel about women choosing to be ministers? Does your church have female pastors or women in high leadership positions?
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Comments (134)
@Koolou@xanga - Nope it doesn't. I stand with you theologically, but practically it is more difficult.
We live in a imperfect sin besotted world. How many times on mission did I have to work with a female pastor because she was the only representative of the local church? Too many times. So what are we to do? Deny support from the only church around because of this issue?
Important as it is, I'm more worried about the feminization of God (goddess worship) that's happening in the church.
@Palamides@xanga - Again, exceptions do not make the rule. but if the woman is truly not feminist, or a supporter of openly or secretly usurping power from men, and their are no men to do the job then what choice is there? But it is definitely not to be taught as how things are supposed to be.
And I agree with you about the feminization of God and goddess worship. Unfortunately I really think that has ties to the feminist movement and to the multi-generational attacks on men role of leadership in this country.
I believe woman have excellent opportunities to lead over other women and children. Women still are given awesome gifts of teaching, compassion, mercy, pastoring, etc. There is just a place for this leadership to be. I have a gift of pastoring, teaching compassion and mercy. I feel I have sufficient opportunities to use these gifts, but in a context of other women. I enjoy being led by men and seeing them in the role as the "head of woman." Since their head is Christ, they are better suited to be the leaders among the church as a whole.
I have both a female pastor and a male pastor as leaders of my church. They are married but my female pastor was a pastor in the church a long time before they married. It is an absoloute equal partnership. I would never put one above the other and certainly would never dismiss anything she says, advises or ministers on because she is a woman. She is a very powerful, charismatic and God centered individual.
I think it's wrong of people to put limits on who God can use. I also think God puts women into these important positions to prove a point, that we are equals, that we can be equally used by God as any man can be within his church. If we as women wish to be used by God I believe we should strive for whatever purpose he has for us. Personally I won't allow general feeling of me having to be in a 'lower' position because I was born with the wrong type of reproductive organs to prevent me from having what God has there ready for me.
Call it going against what is taught in scripture if you like, but I have an amazing inspirational woman showing me that God uses anyone and everyone for his purpose. It was only because Eve brought on the downfall of man that she was cursed into a lower position. But we were freed from that curse by Jesus and are once more equal.
@Koolou@xanga - That's completely sexist, demeaning, and ignorant. Every last bit of it. The fact you try to defend such a manner of thinking defies all logic and sensibility. It states, clearly, distinctly that: "[God] do[es] not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man."
That means, man is above or better than a woman. That is a sexist line of thinking. Even more disturbing is that after all of your prejudiced raving, you have the gall and audacity to claim: "This is NOT OPTIONAL".
So, does "God" love us all "equally" or not? Sounds like, not.
Screw off with your misogynistic, chauvinistic views. Yes, I'm throwing tact to the wind on this one because I'm a staunch "Equal Rights" supporter and it is people like you that screw up society. Why not just become a Nazi? They supported that philosophy too. Hell, they followed it to a "T". :waves hello to Godwin:
Oh, to answer the question: Yes, they can. A woman has the ability AND RIGHT to do anything that a male can/does do and should practise such rights and abilities, irregardless of what nay-sayers may think.
@Palamides@xanga - Isn't
"God" considered "sexless"? How can you even "define" that which is
"defineless"? I thought that we as humans cannot understand "God" let
alone DESCRIBE "God". It appears that the waters of Christianity become
murkier and murkier as one treads further inwards.
Or maybe you just like running around in circles.
@dorfusdunkin - I agree with you. Though, theologically I don't. Ethically, yes.
I once had a man at church tell me that "a woman's only palce in the church is in the nursery with the babies or in the kitchen". That got me so fired up, I could have exploded. Women are extremely capable of making good desicions and can know the word of God just as much as any man! Besides, you can't generalize. Not all men can be leaders, just like not all women are cut out to be mothers. Or cooks, for that matter.
The whole "women in subordinate positions" thing is something that I've always struggled with as a Christian. I guess I kind of always felt that I must be "worth less" to God simply because of my anatomy. That always seemed extremely unfair to me, and while I know that God loves me just as much as he loves my husband, it's a struggle I really have to fight in my heart.
My best friend is agnostic and she told me right out that she could never be a Christian because she thinks the God of the Bible is anti-woman. I have a really hard time explaining to her otherwise when sometimes I believe the same thing myself. I guess I really have to work on that.
We are definitely living in the last days. I welcome anyone who is preaching the truth. The focus should not be on the outward appearance or on someone's personality. I have seen people go into error following someone because they are popular. I have seen people fall into error because they follow someone because they had degrees. Please read your bibles and follow the TRUTH ONLY. No matter who is preaching,follow the Truth.
I have a question:
Do all of you who believe women shouldn't have leadership positions in church also believe women should always cover their heads in church? If you take one, how do you not take the other, since they're both in Paul's epistles?
(I don't think either one applies strictly now, but I'm open to God telling me differently. I do think women pastors need male authority over them.)
@KechiNeko244@xanga - I struggle with this, too, at times. However, God did some innovative things in the Bible.
For instance, society used to say that women couldn't own property, right? Estates went to a male relative if there wasn't a son. Instead, way back in Genesis, Moses told a family to give inheritance to their daughters if there was no son. People were the ones who wouldn't do this later.
Also, you see Deborah, who served as judge of Israel in the book of Judges. Also, Anna, was a prophetess who hung around the temple and blessed Jesus after He was born.
I don't know if you've heard this before, but in Genesis, the real meaning of the word that is translated as "helpmeet" to describe Eve, is way more awesome than that in the original. It's actually the word used to describe the Holy Spirit's work in other places in the Bible. (the term is ezer kenegdo). It means women have a hugely vital role to play.
Women bring beauty to the world, and we all do it in the different ways God has called us to act. I have seen marvelous women who loved being housewives and other marvelous women who are teachers in my church or who have their own businesses. If you read Proverbs 31, the ideal women in that chapter was responsible for more than one business.
God's women are no shrinking violets, and He loves our beauty and our fierceness. He created you with passion and fire on purpose.
One last thing, in Acts 2 (and Joel 2) when the Bible talks about the last days, it says that your sons and daughters will prophesy. God also says He will pour out His Spirit on both men and women. We are in the last days, and as God's women, God wants to pour His Spirit out on us.
@dorfusdunkin - My church does too and amen by the way!
@Pickwick12@xanga - I agree.
@KechiNeko244@xanga - I also want to recommend a book co-written by one of my sister's seminary professors. It's called God's Women Then and Now. It's available on www.gospelpublishing.com
The authors talk about the specific issue of women's involvement in church leadership (they are in favor of it and make a strong biblical case), and they also talk about how much God has valued women throughout time.
My sister's professor (Deborah Gill) is a Bible scholar and amazing teacher. I think you would love the book.
@Koolou@xanga - lol NO man is head of me. I am a human who is created equal to every man out there. Anything a man can do, I can do just as well.
@Schristian@xanga - *applauds* ;)
I'm glad I came across this blog because I was just thinking about this the other day - men being over women or women having leadership roles in church where some men might feel intimidated. We have two women ministers in our church - and one of them is in the pulpit with her husband who is also a Pastor. Yes, the Bible does support that a man is ahead of a woman however times have changed since then...and, if God's calling is for someone to be a Pastor/leader in anything regarding church, what's the big deal if it's a man or a woman?
@Pickwick12@xanga - Yes, I cover my head in church. This is something that has recently been explained to me and, researching scripture myself, I am convicted to cover my head!
@Angelsdelight@xanga - Thank you for bringing the focus back on TRUTH and not what one person believes over another. TRUTH is the only thing that sets us free from minor differences between doctrines.
@Amarisa@xanga - Ah, you beat me to it.
Paul once said the book of Ephesians, "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers." Â He makes a distinction between these five forms of ministry. Â Apostles held the highest authority, because they were commissioned directly by Christ- there aren't any of these alive any longer. Â Anyone who is Preaching is either acting as a Prophet or a teacher. Â A Prophet is anyone who delivers the word of G-d, which most of us assume our preachers are doing. Â The Bible is pretty clear that Women are capable of prophesying. Â An evangelist is someone who attempts to bring others to Christ. Â This position doesn't come with any genuine authority, and it is also recommended to women. Â Teachers... if the church has a problem with women being teachers, it certainly hasn't shown it. Â Since formalized education came in to being, women have generally outnumbered men in the field.
So the only question remaining seems to be whether a woman can be a pastor. Â Well, several verses in the bible refer to the entirety of Christianity as a holy priesthood, Paul himself says there is no difference between male and female in Christianity, and commends Apphia- a woman- in the beginning of the epistle to Philemon for having a church in her home. Â He also discusses women praying/prophesying in 1 Corinthians 11:5, with the sole stipulation of placing a veil over their heads.
What Paul was arguing in saying to not allow a woman have authority over a man is that the complete breakdown of the social hierarchy that early Christians attempted was wrong.  Although many barriers were broken by Christ, there is still a  natural order to things.  Women should not take on the lead role in their marriage, nor would it be proper for them to dominate other men besides their husbands.  It is fully possible to be a pastor, a leader, a teacher, even a administrator in a church without holding dominance over a woman.  Most churches these days are administrated by Church Boards or other committees, not headed up by the pastor.  In my church, our Preacher isn't even our Pastor, they are two different people.  Also, a woman can be the head over as many women and children as she likes.
It is most certainly possible, based on biblical literalism, to make an argument that Women have the right to be pastors as well.
@Schristian@xanga - What an amusing response. I like the way you resort to the rhetorical figures of mockery, name calling, and ad hominen attacks to substantiate your argument.
But perhaps you should read up on the background of the arguments and get an inkling of Christian theology and scripture before you barge into an argument that you don't fully understand yet.
It is typical of the racist to call others racist as it is the ignorant to call others ignorant. Don't fall into that trap. No one is saying that a woman is inferior to man. It's accepted fact in orthodox Christian theology that men and women are equal. There is no difference in the next life even. There are only different roles.
Different roles DOES NOT mean one is inferior to the other or even subordinate. If you think that equality means everything is interchangeable then you're as off as the people who ran the Cultural Revolution in China: making doctors farm and farmers practice medicine. After all everyone is equal right?
As for the Goddess Movement. You misunderstand. It has little to do with gender, but which God we are worshiping. It's the second wave feminist movement to replace Christian doctrine and tradition with a pagan one that equates and replaces God (YHWH) with Isis, Astarte, Ashtoreth, or whatever else they call her. Despite what these people may say Christ and Isis are not the same god.
@Palamides@xanga - intresting i didnt even think back that far but you are so right....
i absolutely support women being teachers and leaders in the church. but i equally support men being leaders too. for me, it's obvious that many women are more than capable, and therefore shouldn't be denied their abilities and passions. for men, i think leadership is their God-given responsibility and absolutely not an option for them. this is their calling, duty, and gift, and more of them need to step up.
back to the women though. if we don't take the crazy laws in Leviticus seriously and chalk those to "cultural context" then why don't we do the same for the instruction to women in the NT? i'm not saying throw it out the window completely - but why can't we learn from it as historical context, not take it literally?
i'm not saying the bible is up to our personal interpretation. and there's certainly wisdom in having male leadership - i wholeheartedly support that. but i don't remember jesus saying anything about women not being teachers, leaders, and instruments of influence within the church. (yeah, i know paul did, but i really, truly think that for the most part has to stay within the cultural and situational context of that time.)
I have been to churuches where they have women pastors ... it's great for teenage girls(like me) and everything ... but i think when it comes to Sr. pastor .. and head pastor ... i think is best to be a man :D
my church here in school has a female pastor. i see no problem with that. whoever God gives the Word to needs to give it to the people. i agree with you, that verse must be interpreted with the culture at the time, just as all other verses in the Bible are. when they talk about people giving sacrifices in biblical times, it was usually animals or sometimes monetary. now, sacrifice is money or that bad habit, or that guilty pleasure that we need to sacrifice as a sign of committment to God.
i don't think women should be kept from ministry. one of my mentors is a female reverend. my mother is in ministry. i actually thought about it myself. (not CALLED, i thought about it). my efforts in ministry at my church shouldn't be limited because i am a woman. and i think anyone that does try to limit a woman from pursuing a place in ministry needs to pray for the renewing and transformation of their mind.
i dont see a problem at all with women being ministers. some women have been called to that, some women have not. debora was a female judge in a time where there were only male judges. God can even call children to be evangelists, and can do anything He wishes to do. i have seen plenty of female ministers that have more of the Spirit and discernment than men do.