Wednesday, 23 July 2008
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Christians Are Not Brainwashed and Delusional
I've been a Christian for a number of years now. Accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior was one of the most important decisions I could have ever made on my own, so it makes me angry when people tell me I only believe in Christ because I grew up in a Christian household (I actually have two brothers who deny Jesus in their daily lives.) If brainwashing me as a child were that easy, I don't think I'd struggle so much with my beliefs as an adult. I wish that when non-Christians hassle me about believing in God, they would step back and realize that not all of their assumptions about me are true. People think I fell into my beliefs because I'm weak and I have my eyes closed - that I'm brainwashed into believing - and I'm using a man-made "God" in order to comfort myself. I'd like the atheists and agnostics who attempt to disprove Christianity in front of me consider and respect that my beliefs aren't based solely on fact and logic. It really is about faith and just because faith isn't written down in a book doesn't mean I'm totally ignorant.
I want the atheists and agnostics who challenge my faith to ask my brothers why they deny Christ. If God and a relationship with Christ are just man-made schemes, why weren't they "brainwashed" into believing in a Creator? And yes, I understand that many will say, "It's because they're not blinded to reality like Christians are." If that's the case, how do we know who's actually blinded/brainwashed and who is in tune with reality?
I'd be lying if I said I never doubted God. I go through these phases of loving God for everything I have and don't have, but every once in a while I don't know where God is...but believing is still a conscious choice.
Have people ever accused you of being brainwashed or ignorant for your beliefs, whatever they are? How do you handle the criticism?
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Comments (118)
Christians do the same to atheists.
Time to suck it up, to be blunt.
Not brainwashed eh? hahaha, you have obviously never been where I live. You dont know how sick it made me when I heard our class officer ask "why would God allow something like that to happen?" in reference to things such as Hitler, Katrina, and other worldly disasters. In fact, our whole "christian" population at school was like that... Now, in your defense, I understand the whole struggling with god, where is he I need help right now. Im catholic, not much of one, but enough to believe that god exists.
so, let me put it this way. All the "Christians" I know are brain washed in the sense that their book smart, but their common sense is lacking.
you know how you say you hate it when people dislike and question your beliefs and throw you into the category of brainwashed, un-intellectual? non-christians also hate it when proselytizing christians categorize them as lost, blind, needing saving, etc. it's pretty annoying when people don't respect the beliefs you've earned, learned or been otherwise convicted of. it is definitely a two-way street.
People always consider me to be an ignorant idol-worshipper because I'm Hindu. They don't take the time to understand what my religion is about. I like learning about different religions and how the people interpret them, but I wish more would do the same.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled is making people believe he doesn't exist. If you think the devil isn't real, try denying him for week.
@Schristian -
This shows how ignorant and brainwashed YOU are. You obviously want to sit there with your fingers in your ears shouting "LA LA LA! If I know the truth, then I can't complain, so I'm ignoring you!"
I wish that Christians had the ability to see from other people's perspectives. Some, I grant, do that, but the majority have no concept of other people's beliefs and feelings. There are evangelical atheists, sure, but the majority of dissension is caused by Christians who want everyone to feel as they do. And it's not limited to Christian and "non Christian" relations, but also Christian-Christian relationships. Each denomination isn't satisfied with others feeling differently than they do. Atheists may not have such a defensive attitude if Christians wouldn't be on the offensive so much of the time.
Personally, I feel like I was brainwashed as a child, and am only now able to move away from it. I didn't realize just how bad it was until I had some time away from the constant bombardment of religious doctrine. But I accept that the situation is mine personally and doesn't apply to everyone. I don't debate people and push my faith or lack thereof on others, and I appreciate when people give the same courtesy rather than cornering me in the supermarket to make sure I know I'm going to hell.
@KaidaSani@xanga - I've heard that as well, and I really think that the concept of the force is a subtle new age idea. Here's one main difference though: Where the force is impersonal, the God of the Bible does have a consciousness and a personality, and I believe has revealed His existence to us.
Nor does the force doesn't claim to care about people. My God does. A lot.
@ogre_friend@xanga - Unfortunately that is something I've heard many times. especially from pastor's kids, and kids who were forced to go to church. Particularly churches or denominations that are based on liturgy, repitition or just aren't very interesting or alive.
@Schristian@xanga - http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/IMMA_CHARGIN_MAH_LAZER
Like you said, Schristian, it's someone's choice to click it. XD
@Koolou@xanga - Oh I went to an "alive" church. Pentecostal Holy Spirit filled, yadda yadda. But don't disagree with them.
@Schristian@xanga - Why does it bother you so much? Could it be that our beliefes are in contrast to what you believe, and therefore threaten yours?
Your problem sees to be that Christans claim to have absolute truth, and therefore undermine freedom, oppress people, and deciecve themselfes as being "free". Some are saying "everyone should be free to choose for themselves what truth is". So, is absolte truth the enemy of freedom?
Three things... Absolute truth is way more important than people realize. Freedom is more complex than people think, and Jesus (not the steriotypical religion Christianity but the relationship with Jesus) is more freeing than people seem to think.
Freedom comes from truth. Some you you seem to think that conforming to truth (or a precieved truth) is a lack of freedom. Some say, that any claim to truth is a power play. It is a way to restrain people and have power over them.
When Christians claim that we should all obey God's Word, are they saying it out of love for God, love for His Word, or is it a way of establishing their own moral superiority. All too often it is the later with Christians. Why, because of bad teaching - as is explained by others in this post, and because Christans are not perfect people, because of many reasons. Sometimes Christans who do not understand the gosspel use the truth as a club of opression, or ignoring those who do not accept the same absolute truth.
Jesus accuses the pharisees of the same thing. They loved the law, because it gave them power because they supposedly kept the law. They used their righteousness (which was actually self-ighteousness) to have power over other people. It was a power play.
If you think that every truth claim is a power play - well that does not make sense, logically. You can't see through everything, because to see through everything is to be blind, and see nothing. A tranparent world is an invisable world. It is the same as blindness. To say that "all truth claims are a power play" would alos then be a power play. So then, I don't have to listen to whoever thinks that, because they explain away their own explanation.
Makeing a truth claim is not a power play. It is not opressive. Everyone has to make truth claims. The difference is what is in the truth claim. The fundamental truth of Jesus is that He died for His enemies. What is oppressive about that?
Truth claims can be used to oppress freedom, as history states. Even the history found in the Bible exposes those who use the truth for their own power.
To have freedom, requires you to have truth. True freedom requires some restraint. If you were a captain in a boat, who needed to get to a destination. You would need information (or truth) to get to your destination. The captain without a map, who wishes to be free from any law, could have peace of mind, as he sails his ship into ruine. The "free" captain is out of touch with reality and truth.
The idea that someone has to get out from under truth, to be free is ignorant. A fish is free when it is in the water. Put it on land, and it will die. Freedom for the fish, comes from submitting to the truth, that he needs the water.
Freedom is not the absence of restrictions. Freedom is more complex than this simplification of it. You can't just eat whatever you want. Some thngs will kill you. Too much of soemthing else will also kill you, or it will kripple you by making you sick, at that point you will realise how free you used to be when you were healthy.
An athlete will submit to a rigorous routine for the sake of a grander freedom. A runner will train himself with disipline and will, for a greater level of freedom than he could ever get to by doing whatever it is he wanted. It is because of his desire for this achievement, that he restricts himself. He would never get the prise without it.
You may dream to be the next American Idol - and in American culture your teacher has told you, "You, can be whatever you want to be." (and like some idiots on American Idol - they actually believe that) Truth may tell you that you don't have the talent for that. Some do, but most everyone - does not have the talent.
Love, is the ultimate freedom. Yet the freedom of love, only comes when you surender all kinds of personal freedoms. But in the instance of love - it is not all dependant on your surender of freedom, but also, who you are in love with. You can love someone, but until they love you back, you can't express that freedom of love truely.
Christianity is supposed to be a relationship with God. Our "morality" is supposed to be the expression of that love, by putting our own selfish desires aside, and seeking after His desire.
Christinas are to adhire to the teachings of the Bible, because of their love for God. Our morality, does not make us any better - because their are plenty of awful Christians out there (that may have attributed to the sour taste in your mouth toward us). This embracing of the principals in scripture, is to be merely an expression of love, but all too often Christians use it as the Pharasees did. That was never the intent, and those who use the truth of the Bible as a club to oppress are decieved, and they are often self righteous. (wich by the way is a sin to a Christian.
I am sorry that some Christains (maybe a whole lot of Christians) are like this. I used to be one of them. No I am not brain washed, or close minded. Some Christians might be that way, yes, but so are those who dismiss God, and the Bible without studying it objectively. The fact is I have found no other truth that has held up to my own scrutiny. Once you study God's Word, you can find that there is faith, as well as logic and reason. Others will forever be slaves to their bias perspectives, thinking that they alone have the claim to absolute truth, and no one else. True freedom is found in the absolute truth, of God's Word.
@galthouse@xanga - Your expression and opinion is far different than that of the person I commented previously. His belief is that his way of life is superiour and that those of MY kind (the uncleansed, so to speak) will never be privy to "ultimate love" unless we accept a religion that we do not agree with. I have no real problem with Christianity, other than the fact that it is grossly misrepresented, abhorrently perverted (especially in modern times) by many followers and zealots, and that a fair number of the "Teachings" found in the Bible can be construed as sexist, controlling, manipulative, demeaning, and depricating to the human being.
My religious beliefs are in no jeopardy, so I find nothing threatening about your religious beliefs. What I find threatening to ALL of MANKIND is the belief that many Modern Day Christians (not all) hold: "Accept Our Beliefs Or We'll Hurt You". Look at the Westboro Baptist Church. See the damage they do and the people they hurt in "the name of God and His teachings". THAT is what is threatening. People like GuitarGuy, who want everyone else to believe that not believing in Jesus and "God" will inevitably give them the eternal screw over are causing damage to people and the world through psychological threats/warfare. It's insidious and demoralizing. It also goes against the basic teachings of Jesus.
Worse still, is when someone as zealotous as GuitarGuy try to bend the "rules" of the Bible to meet their own ends. Love Thy Neighbour... Unless He Disagrees With Your Beliefs. Or better yet, "Take Leviticus's writings and take them LITERALLY. God hates Gays. BUT! The passages proclaiming women as inferiour to men? Those are open for interpretation."
No. If you are taking the Bible literally, you can't just pick and
choose what's literal and what is not. The major claim is that the
Bible is 100% TRUTH right? Well then doesn't that mean there is no room for interpretation? If I'm to accept Leveticus, and Revelations, and Job, and Mark at face value, what makes those passages any different?
It's a nonsensical circumstancial backpeddaling that upsets me. It's the egotistical, holier-than-thou mindset that angers me. Not because they are right, but because they are naive, foolish, and ignorant to other people's ideas, beliefs, or feelings. It's not love. It is oppression, degredation, and demoralization, all in the name of glorifying themselves, and their belief system.
But it must be hard to understand why any of this would offend someone. Very hard indeed.
I do have to disagree with your last point. True freedom is not found in "the absolute truth, of "God's" Word". True freedom is being able to DECIDE what is TRUTH and what is not. Blindly accepting someone else's viewpoint as TRUTH is not freedom. It is brainwashing. If someone researches and makes the decision that "God's" Word is right for them, that is fine. That is understandable. But I cannot condone mindless, drone-like espousings of the Bible in my face as TRUTH. Especially when I've done MY research and found it all to be not to my liking.
So while Christians are proclaiming that they are being persecuted, what about me? What about when I have to listen to some Halo Chucker tell me I'm going to Hell and I'm a shitty person because I don't agree with their faith? How is that acceptable? How is that "Loving Thy Neighbour"? Freedom is the ability to CHOOSE; the ability to THINK for oneself; the ability to REASON, to UNDERSTAND, to ACCEPT those around you. Then, and only then (in my opinion) is one truly Free.
But to say someone cannot and is not Free unless they accept your views, your way of life?
That is oppression.
@Schristian@xanga - I am enjoying this. I think we agree on the zelots thing. Actually I think we can agree on a lot - which some might find surprising, but at leat we were able to find some solid ground.
Ok, never does the Bible say that women are inferrior. They have different roles, but they are NEVER inferior. It is only culture that looks at their role as inferior. So I think, in my opinion, that your "research" is incomplete, and coming from a bias perspective rather than an objective one.
Second, God does not hate gays. He hates what they have done to His creation of marriage and sex being between a man and a woman. But in no way does he hate the person. Do you hate me because I am a Christian, or do you hate what I believe? There is a HUGE difference. If Jesus were in this world today, I think He'd be spending a lot of time with the gays. He to embrace them as brothers.
Third truth is not a choice. Two plus two does not equal six, just because someone wants it to. I thought I made this clear earlier, but it seems I was not. If your opinion of freedom is true, than everyone is a slave. We are all subject to some authority. You can't just do what you want to do, and not be concerned about concequences. Just because, you don't like something, does not mean its not true.
How do you justify your actions? You are attacking my faith, in responce to some Christians attacking what you believe. Is that right? Does that make any sense? Does Christan oppression that you are supposedly suffering, justify your persicution of my faith? Do you not see your own hypocricy? Don't you see how your reactions are just as awful as the attacks the self-righteous bigots are making against you?
Am I oppressing you, because I question your "beliefs? Does that make me your enemy? How am I to find THE TRUTH unless I ask you, and others like you, these questions? Do you really have the truth? If you did, you would not feel so threatened.
I think you want to believe what you want to believe, and you don't want anyone telling you differently. Any one who says what you don't want ot hear is "oppressing" you. Do you seriously believe you can make your own truth? As if to say 2+2=6 if I want it to. That is absurd. I'm not oppressing you, I'm poking holes in your opinions - and you seem to feel threatened by it.
I am sorry this sounds so harsh. I am not trying to be that way. I hear what you are saying. I hear it often. I've been there. I can relate to how you dispise bigots. It is great that you asks your pointed questions, and observations. Christians need that kind of feedback. I can respect your choice to disbelieve. It is your choice. However - you are able to choose wrongly. I am merely trying to caution you.
I beleive the Bible is truth, because every question I have asked has been answered in scripture, and I have asked a LOT of questions - and I am still asking them. I don't have all the answers, but outside of scripture, the worlds answers don't hold up to the tests of time or reason. I believe I have the truth, because scripture has proven to me, time and time again, to hold exclusively to absolute truth. I only wish others, like you, could know it, like I do, not to imprison, you, but to set you free.
"I wish that when non-Christians hassle me about believing in God, they
would step back and realize that not all of their assumptions about me
are true."
Flip this idea into Non-Christians wishing that Christians would not assume things about them simply because of their beliefs (or lack there of)
By taking up the cross, you're also taking up the persecution. It's something you'll always have to deal with.
@galthouse@xanga - i agree!
I don't think you are delusional. You believe in something quite practical that makes you more socially acceptable and therefore your life is easier and more pleasant. All Christians operate under a cultural mindset of persecution and alienation because yes, theirs and your religious brethren were indeed persecuted..the brunt of that was about two thousand years ago. Just for the sake of example, my parents grew up very poor, and I grew up lower middle class in their effort to make life better for me and my siblings. In my household, however there was a attitude of poverty that I acquired that was inaccurate. Let's get real here: everyone around you is a Christian. You are not being persecuted. You are not a social outcast. Take a look at some statistical data sometime. Christianity is a MAJOR religion in the world, especially the Western world. What you see in people who disagree with you and find you delusional is just a product of the failure of Christianity and often times the result of humans struggle of repression in all areas ones' life; even ones' own thoughts. I won't even go into its culture of sexism bc that would require my writing a book.. again there are many strikes against Christianity.
did you ever figure your brothers might not be retarded like you? it could be that simple.
they might also be strong enough to handle the obstacles in life without quitting like a baby and saying "god help me"