Tuesday, 22 July 2008

  • Opinion: Do Atheists Have Morals?

    from TheTheologiansCafe

    morals I have noticed some people pointing out that atheists have no basis for morality or doing good.  This is sometimes brought up with the mentality that a Christian has a basis for doing good because he has the Bible to tell him to do good.  He observes God's holy standard and then follows the path that God has laid before him.

    It is pointed out that an Atheist does not have that standard and has no God to stand over him and no fear of punishment from God.

    A Bible reference that can be seen is in Romans 1:18-23 (NIV)

    "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.  For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles."

    It would appear that this passage is referring to those who are godless.   It appears that the text is saying they suppress the truth.  It appears that the Bible is saying that they have suppressed truth and have instead engaged in wickedness.

    What do you think - do atheists have a basis for being moral?

Comments (447)

  • HeartOfPandora@xanga

    Of course they do.  Just because an Atheist doesn't have some book telling them what to do doesn't mean they're not human.  Wow, just gonna stop there, this rant warrants a blog.

  • Schristian@xanga

    Morality is relative. The same holds true for religion. There is no TRUE set of morals, no TRUE religion. Only what you feel is right to you. So yes, Atheists have morals.

    Honestly, this is a stupid question. So the people running this site are not only sexist bigots, but mental defects too. Great.

    Delete this comment too. This time I AM trying to be a jerk since you'll delete what I say any way.

  • MyLifeInOz@xanga

    I am an Atheist, and let me tell you, I have more morals than many "Christians" at my school.


    I have started a club to help bring awareness to the poverty issue in many countries, especially those in many parts of Africa.


    I don't drink, smoke, or do any form of illegal drug. I don't have sex, nor do I plan to before marriage.


    I'm sorry, but nothing makes me more mad when I'm told that I have no morals because I'm an atheist. Religion would not change my ways.


    I have made the choice to not believe in God because of all the horrible things I've seen in this world and all of the horrible things that have happened before my time. If you want to know more, feel free to send me a message, but I'm unlike most atheists and I'm not going to go post all over about how I don't believe in God, but if you want my reasoning, I will gladly tell you, I will not answer to rude questions or responses though.


    But I do find many religous and non-religous people to be ignorant, especially about other religions and beliefs. I'm 16, but I bet I've studied several world religions. They include; Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Pagan/Wiccan, Taoism, and Roman and Greek mythology. Many atheist would go around and bash somebody's beliefs, but I'm not like that.


    I am an Atheist, and I do have morals.

  • la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga

    @trunthepaige@xanga - Oh, my.
    "It all falls apart when no one is looking."
    What about morality that is based on developing personal happiness?  What if I believe it's wrong to drink because that will make me unhappy?  It doesn't matter if people are looking or not - I do not want to complete that immoral action.

    "Honestly
    Christians should strongly believe that atheists basically have the
    same sense of morality that they do. That is what the bible says"
    It's also what evolutionary biology says.  So we agree on something.

    @Tom - " But, in that all cultures have similar
    guidelines implies that they all got them from the same place.  That of
    course being from their Creator"
    Because, of course, biological advantage to "moral" societies couldn't possibly have favored an ingrained sense of morality over thousands of years.  Evolutionary biology explains the exact same phenomenon, without all the guesswork of faith.

    "I would say that no one is truly atheist
    they only believe themselves to be because they have hardened
    themselves to God and deny what has been made plain to them."
    I addressed this above.  God is not "plain" to me.  There is no inherent instinct that I hold that could not very easily be attributable to natural, scientifically-explained phenomena.  There is no overwhelming evidence in favor of any kind of deity, much less in favor of the Christian God.  For God to be "plain" to me, he has to create a miracle that I can see, that cannot be explained through any natural process, or he has to leave sufficient evidence for me to conclude reasonably that he exists.  I am not emotionally opposed to the idea of God any more than I am emotionally opposed to any concept which is not supported by evidence or reason.

  • musicmom60@xanga

    When we talk about "morals" are we talking about knowing right from wrong?  Treating people and animals kindly?  Following the rules of Mom and Dad?  Of the school?  Following our government's rules - being law-abiding citizens?  While I am a Christian and first got my "moral code" from my parents and my church and my Sunday School class, it wasn't too long before school started and lots of those same "morals" existed and were taught by teachers in the school, although it was a public school and could have just as well been run by atheists.  "Don't push other kids.  You might hurt them"  "Don't take other people's things."  "Clean up after yourself."  "Say you're sorry."  "Replace what you've broken/stolen/lost."  "Be respectful of teachers and parents and other adults."  "Be kind to each other."  "Treat animals and the earth with respect and kindness.  Take care of them."  These we all learn, whether we are Christians or not.  Are these moral codes taught, or are they written on all our hearts?  They DO need to be taught in schools.  Some children arrive not having a clue how to behave or act or follow any sort of rules.  Other children have already been taught the basics by their parents, and maybe even their churches, but maybe not.  Do any children ever figure all this out for themselves, without being taught?  Somebody, somewhere, taught "right from wrong", without it having anything to do with Christianity.

    That being said, it is said that our country's laws are based on the Ten Commandments, and our country recognizes God as a basis for our laws and our behavior.  But I also believe that atheists have their own "moral code" or ethics "written on their heart" or taught to them, or figured out on their own, somewhere along the way - we are all human, and most of us have a basic sense of human decency toward others. As for the truth, I am not sure whether atheists reject the truth, or whether they don't believe there IS a truth, or if they claim to be atheists, then they have obviously been doing some thinking about various beliefs and have decided what they choose to believe, so it's not that they're unaware of God or others' belief in God.  But it doesn't mean they're wicked.  It's like a Venn diagram - remember those?  The overlapping circles - the middle part - is basic morals and values and ethics.  Yes, Christians and atheists and Jews and Muslims and Buddhists can all belong to this middle part that overlaps....they all have some common morals and ethics.  But the outside parts of the circles - the parts that do not overlap - represent the differences that do not intersect. 
  • MagisterTom@xanga

    @la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga - Because, of course, biological advantage to
    "moral" societies couldn't possibly have favored an ingrained sense of
    morality over thousands of years

    Actually, would not the opposite be true?  Wouldn't the group that doesn't see a problem with murder survive over the group that deemed it wrong to kill?

    Also, that doesn't explain why all cultures would have "evolved" similar moral codes.

    "What about morality that is based on developing personal happiness?"
    If your morality was based on developing your personal happiness wouldn't that mean theft is okay, because you are happy that you have what you once didn't?  Would that also not justify murder, as it takes care of that person that annoys you?

    Regarding what Paige said, and you quoted, regarding it all falling away when no one is looking, drinking would not because you don't deem that to make you happy.  But, if one thought they could get away with something that they believed would make them happy, then what is to stop them from trying it?

  • Quackalishus@xanga

    I think the fact that this question is even being asked is insulting. I'm offended.  To be quite frank, this question is based in ignorance.  If you're going to question the motives of people who don't believe in God, you should take the time to research a reference that isn't from God. I'm not saying that the bible's words should be completely disregarded, but I think the argument you've presented is a little one-sided.

    For instance, did you know that ethical perspectives have been analyzed and defined?  The religious ethical perspective is only one of SEVEN widely recognized guiding principles. SO, for your own benefit, I thought I'd share the perspective of some one who isn't as pure as your every-day christian.

    Economic Perspective – By far the simplest of perspectives.
    People who use this ask themselves what will minimize costs and maximizeprofits.  Any action that works toward those ends is ethical. Conversely, any action that lowers profits and raises costs is unethical.

    Legal Perspective – People who use this only care if an action is legal.  If the law allows for it, it’s ethically right.  If the law
    doesn’t allow for a certain act, then doing so is unethical.

    Utilitarian Perspective – People who use this perspective
    are concerned with the question, “What action will do the greatest good for the greatest number of people in the least amount of time?”  If an action helps more people than it hurts, then it would be considered ethical.  If an action helps people, but a different action could help more, than it is unethical.

    Universalist Perspective – People who use this perspective
    are only concerned with the intentions behind a person’s actions.  If somebody meant well, and was trying to help, then their actions were ethical, even if those actions might otherwise be considered questionable or wrong.

    Deontological Perspective – People who use this perspective
    are concerned with the end results.  They might say “The ends justify the means.” By this attitude, any action, no matter how depraved, is ethical if it accomplishes a positive end-result.

    Religious Perspective – People who use this govern
    themselves by a set of standards of right and wrong that are defined by something outside of themselves.  This can be religious texts like the Bible, the Torah, or the Koran, or it can be
    something that’s not religious at all, like scientific laws of nature.

    Situational Perspective – This perspective is the most complex.  According to this perspective, the ethics of an action are determined by the aspects of the situation in which
    it occurred.  Basically, this means that what is right and wrong depends on the circumstances.

    So, do I believe that athiests have a basis for being moral? To put it simply, every human being has a reason for their actions, regardless of faith.  Christians aren't the only people with guide lines and rules that define their lives.  The rest of us aren't heartless monsters that simply put on a farce of morality.

    Next time, be careful how you word your questions, and support your basis for those questions in more than just scripture. If you're dealing with a topic that exists outside of faith, you need to reference material that exists outside of faith.

  • la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga

    @Tom -"Wouldn't the group that doesn't see a
    problem with murder survive over the group that deemed it wrong to kill? Also, that doesn't explain why all cultures would have "evolved" similar moral codes."

    Talking about our early history, we lived in tribes, which often competed with other tribes for resources.  For simplicity, let's examine hypothetical tribes A, B, and C.  Tribe A is primarily composed of "moral" people who do not steal or kill.  Tribe B is primarily composed of "immoral" people who will do anything, regardless of the repercussions.  Tribe C is primarily composed of people who are "sometimes moral" - that is, people who would not kill someone of their own tribe, but can justify murder in warfare, or might steal from their neighbor for the benefit of their family.  Each tribe has the incentive to seek out and punish moral violations, since moral violations within the tribe will make the tribe as a whole less likely to survive and thrive.
    Tribe A would flourish on their own quite well.  Each person would have incentive to work, and no one would be killed before they got the chance to procreate.  However, if another tribe came in and waged war upon Tribe A, they'd simply die out.
    Tribe B would kill themselves off from rage, before even coming into contact with another tribe.
    Tribe C, as a whole, would be the most successful.  The tribe would thrive on its own, since all its members would survive and work for their own survival.  In warfare, the tribe would be able to justify killing.  Now, within Tribe C, a selfish, immoral individual might be more likely to survive than a "sometimes moral" member of the tribe, but the tribe will punish these immoral individuals AND if there are too many of those individuals, the tribe fails as a whole.
    This process of weeding out the most immoral (and the most purely moral) individuals could have been repeated many times in various areas of the world in which humans developed, or it could have developed once, in ONE tribe that spawned the rest of humanity.  Furthermore (and I'm not an anthropologist, so am not as clear on the details of this one), cultural values could be passed down generations from one (or several) of these initial tribes to compound genetic incentives to behave in a certain way.  It's hard to tell how much of our morality is due to cultural concerns and how much is inherent; either way, it could have developed very early on, either multiple times, or just been replicated from one example.

    No, theft and murder would never make me happy, even if I disliked a person, or really wanted something.  I would be forced to think of their rights, which would make me feel guilty (as an extension of the golden rule).  Furthermore, I would be distressed at having to violate another person's rights to his body or property, since those are concepts I strongly believe in.


    If someone thought they could get away with something that they believed would make them happy, and that action would harm someone else (basically, hurting their property or their body), then first of all, they need to re-evaluate happiness, because they seem to be ignoring long-term considerations here (or maybe they're just a sociopath, and derive no joy from their fellow man, or their own self-sovereignty).  But you're right that there's nothing to stop them, save the threat of being incarcerated.  Similarly, there's nothing to stop a "Christian" who really wants to harm someone else, particularly if he believes that his religion gives him license to do so - that it is mandated by God.  I'm sure you've seen examples of this.

  • Amarisa@xanga

    If one kept reading on in Romans, one may find the answer to your question (quote copied and pasted from biblegateway.com):

    "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For
    it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but
    it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed,
    when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by
    the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have
    the law, since they show
    that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their
    consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now
    even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."  (Romans 2:12-16)

    Paul seems to be saying that, though the Gentiles do not have the Law as the Jews have it, they do possess it.  Whereas the Jews have it written down as sacred scripture, the Gentiles have it written on their hearts.

    And they can choose to ignore it, just as we religious folk so often choose to ignore it.

  • la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga

    @Quackalishus@xanga - Thank you!  Yours is a well-written, well-thought-out response.

  • Amarisa@xanga

    @MyLifeInOz@xanga - I believe that everyone has an innate moral compass. 

  • Scrittore_di_cielo@xanga

    Yes ma'am we do.


    They are just more common sense based.

  • Pass_the_Aura@xanga

    First of all, the verse quoted is saying that all immoral people are denying the truth about God, not that all atheists are immoral people.  (i.e. "All A is B" does not mean that "All B is A", for those who like syllogisms.)

    Second, there's an obvious difference between asking whether a person behaves morally and asking whether a person has a consistent philosophical basis for their morality.  A person can choose not to steal without ever thinking deeply through the reasons that stealing is wrong.

    When we miss these distinctions, we spin our wheels and get nowhere.

    I think it's evident that many atheists or nonbelievers are of course capable of behaving as morally as the next person--but by a moral standard that appears to be borrowed from theistic religion.

    Daniel Dennett (himself an atheist) argues in Darwin's Dangerous Idea that if naturalistic evolution is true, then we have no basis at all for moral judgments.  If Dennet is correct, then atheists who behave morally may be very right to do so, but are inconsistent with their philosophy. I think he's on to something: How, exactly, would one get by pure reason from the premise "There is no Supreme Moral Law-Giver greater than humans" to the conclusion "All humans should live morally"?  At very least, the logic is a lot simpler if there's a God.

    Anyhow, all this is essentially irrelevant to the real issue.  The idea taught in the Bible is that no one (especially not religious people!) is perfectly moral.  "We all stumble in many ways."  We've all broken whatever moral law we believe in, and thus we have no hope of depending on our moral virtue.  If moral behavior is the answer, we all flunk the test.  The problem is not that nobody believes in morality, but that nobody's moral enough by their own standards.  Where's the hope in that?

    (Cue Epistle to the Romans... standing by....)

  • Theophilus166@xanga

    While atheists may act moral, there can be no absolute morality without the divine.  Atheists (and theists) often behave in what is considered a moral manner because of social constructs - much of what we consider 'moral' is required for a society to function effectively.  For example, a society won't survive if people are killing each other, stealing, and going back on contracts they signed.

    @la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga - "Atheists who have an ethical code are generally in stages 5 and 6..."  By the end of his life, Kohlberg ceased putting anyone in stage 6, and while some may occasionally act in that category, it's theoretical on the whole.   I'll also reiterate that the vast majority of atheists I've talked to operate in stage 4, arguing that the origin of morality was for the purpose of social function.

  • trunthepaige@xanga

    @la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga -
    "What if I believe it's wrong to drink because that will make me unhappy?"

    You are mistaking thinking that something is not good for you with a moral code. Self benefit is not morality.

    "It's also what evolutionary biology says"

    So you are saying that your personal morality is based on your DNA. All that profound philosophical lap dancing of Kohlberg's was well . . . it sounded good but you are just the product of genetics and external stimuli

  • la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga

    @trunthepaige@xanga - Kohlberg was a psychologist, not a philosopher.
    Psychology is based in biology, specifically, neurobiology.
    And yeah, I'm a beautiful product of two infinitely variable factors.  You believe you're a beautiful intentionally created product of one infinitely variable factor.
    What's the difference?

  • la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga

    @Theophilus166@xanga - Most atheists you know are in 4 (by your evaluation), many atheists I know are in 5 (by my evaluation).  We just proved absolutely nothing.

  • trunthepaige@xanga

    @la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga - 

    In results none at all. In your way of looking at things this conversation may not be much more than the reflex actions of a self replicating DNA strand. Or do you go that far with it?

  • craigb1015@xanga

    All people have a "moarl standard"...But from ALL people only SOME have a "moral standard" and a "religious moral standard"...I believe people who have no religion still have morals and beliefs, but Catholics (for example) have their own morals as well faith based morals...People are People...Let's be Friends

  • foreverdrawn@xanga

         Morals aren't specifically defined to only christians, or people with religion in general. People do good at times because it is simply the right thing to do. Saying otherwise is, while I wouldn't say entriely wrong, quite ignorant. -And people who would only do good just because of the fact that someone is "watching over their shoulder" is quite pathetic to begin with. Whether or not there is an afterlife, or whatnot, the actions of people still pertain to and affect the world around them. -And as a note, I wouldn't say that all christians use or even have good moral judgement. I mean, in some ways, look at that bible passage, it's basically being prejudice towards all people who don't believe in God. Prejudice, much like saying that everyone who doesn't tip fifeteen percent is an asshole. Right or wrong is right or wrong; I don't need a bible or God to tell me what that is.

  • BillW87@xanga

    This question seems almost offensive in implying that without Christianity there can be no morals. You seem to be forgetting that the study of ethics in the classics (Greek and Roman) far predates Christianity and is not theologically based. Most would argue that ethics as a whole is a necessary element for society, and therefore morality itself would date back to the first civilization and far far predate Judaism. I suggest people here read the classics of ethics before assuming that Christianity or Judaism are prerequisites for being a moral person.

  • k_Skrap_moua@xanga

    NO.  Join the Reformation.  

  • liars_game@xanga

    yes we do have morals. 
    you know the normal ones. like the ones all the chirstians have. but being good to one another because its the right thing to do didn't make since so they said god told them to and now they have morals.
    so yes.  morals are in check. 

  • la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga

    @trunthepaige@xanga - It doesn't matter to me what causes me to live.  The fact is that I can experience things very vividly, and that I can enjoy life.  I do indeed believe that, at the fundamental level, I'm just strands of DNA coding for all sorts of responses, and my physiological reactions to environmental stimuli.  However, that doesn't make my life or experience any less meaningful.

  • iRECIO_DAN@xanga

    i believe everybody can create their own morals.


    after all, the morals of christianity were made by god, right?

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