@la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga - " Science still provides for their existence.  The fact that it can't yet completely explain them doesn't mean that it pretends they're not there"

Yes, sometimes it seems as though science is developing its religious qualities, too.

@bosefius@xanga - 

My experience when I was younger was much the same as yours.  I grew up in a church that was more of a social club than a place to learn how to have a relationship with God.  I visited other churches which operated quite differently and sought spiritual experiences to no avail.  Like you, I also threw Christianity out the window.  What I'm talking about is not Christianity, but a relationship with the God of Love.

Then, in my teen years, I visited both the Anne Frank museum in Holland and the remains of a Concentration Camp. Any possibility of an ability to believe was gone then. How could any God, any one, allow this to happen to His Chosen People.

There's the free will dilemma.  Either we are going to have the capability to do ourselves harm or we are going to be autonomatrons or robots.  However, there then comes the problem that, having our free will, He still chooses to intervene sometimes and sometimes not.  Why does He choose the way He does?  I know the ultimate answer, but I'm too far below His intellegence level to understand His reasonings in getting to those conclusions.

That brings up a more central dilemma - who defines good and evil, right and wrong?  Who should?  God's viewpoint as Maker and owner of the universe is that He has all rights to define the purposes for His creation.  A worker in pottery can choose what to make of the clay He has.  He can take half of it and make an ornamental vase fit for the house of royalty.  With the rest of it he can make pots to piss in, to coin a phrase.  Both are useful and necessary.  It his clay, his work, his choice.

That concept offends most people because we have been so abused by authorities, especially those who were supposed to protect us, that we cannot fathom a purely righteous one, much less a loving one.  The strange thing, though, is that in the deepest part of our beings, if we can get there, that is what me most long for.  But the vulnerability and surrender required to find out for sure if He's the real deal are quite often too much of a risk for us.  It really takes something more powerful than ourselves to move us into the place where we can make that huge of a risk.

At the same time, I lead a more 'Christian' lifestyle than the vast majority of Christians that I know, both personally and online here. Instead of listing them in depth I will say I am more accepting, more giving and honestly, more moral than many Christians. Why? Because it is who I am.

I wouldn't be surprised if you do.  There are many factors coming at those who profess Christianity that bring this about, as well as factors concerning your life.  First and foremost most "Christians" are not taught to have a relationship with their God.  They are taught about Him in different amounts of detail and completeness, but few are taught to know Him personally.  A Christian without a relationship with God is a powerless person.  All he knows is rules and law.  This person is worse off than one who has no knowledge of the Lover of Our Souls.  This glorious life is dangled in front of him as promised, but it is never delivered.  Instead they are given rewards of recognition and respect for certain behaviors such as evangelizing and going on short term missions.  They are always working to earn God's love when it has been given freely, yet no one is showing them how this is the case.

This leads him to do in his own power what was meant to be done by God's leading, turning out to be awkward, fruitless, and often making their God more repugnant to the ones he was trying to lead to Him.  But if he knew his God he would be more focused on God's heart toward those to whom he might talk to about the God of Love, and seek to love them in more ways than just talking about how cool God is, or how awful it is to be without Him forever.

You have no such pressures to perform, or at least milder pressures which are much less costly to consider ignoring.  Your family is your world, and its well-being your only concern.  Even though each area of your understanding may be flawed, each area can still resound with what you were made for - to know love and to love.  And even though you don't know Him personally, there is enough evidence of Him around for you to pick some of Love's ways for yourself and your family.  You don't have anyone's love or approval to worry about or earn.

I'm not sure how clear I'm being.  I hope I'm making sense to you.

And no, I don't try to convince others they are wrong about their faith, honestly, it is none of my business. I wish I could convince people that my faith (and yes, Atheism, when you get down to it, is a faith of sorts) is as valid as theirs and when you try to convince me I am wrong, that I need to change, you are not only re-affirming my faith but you are showing that I am the one that is more secure because I don't have to convince others that I am right.

Those who are truly mature in their relationship with the Biblical God will not try to convince others they are wrong per se, as much as they will offer them something they don't have and might want; something they might find preferable to what they already have.  Unfortunately, there are few of these folk around.  These people will love as they have been loved by Love.  They will demonstrate what it is they've found and want you to know about.

I'm so sorry that there are so many more out there who are under a performance pressure who insult and abuse those like you who might otherwise give them an open hearing.  I feel like Love's name is more abused by those who call themselves by His name than by those who purposefully serve His enemy.

My hope and prayer is that all the folk who've expressed here their being offended by these misguided people would meet those who know Him personally so that they can taste and know to a small degree the Love that is beyond their wildest dreams, enough to entice them to see if He really is who we say He is, if He's as good as we say He is.

As for the tone, nothing upsets me more than when Atheists get defensive and angry about something that is asking a honest (though insulting) question. At the same time, when I post anti-religion (in general) blogs (usually related to news stories) and people get upset that is fine. I highly encourage debate and free speech. However, you don't get to attack people for their beliefs, no matter what they are (within reason of course, some, you just have to ridicule).

I get upset, obviously, when those who go by His name defame his name, too.  I was one of them.  It wasn't until I got to know Him personally that my eyes were opened to see the hideous thing I was doing.

I can see you are one who likes to take in all the information he can get to make decisions by.  I honor your openness as well as your civility to those who are civil to you.

Wow, this could have been a blog in and of itself. Sorry about that

Then I should also apologize. 

@bosefius@xanga - "You are a person that (if you lived locally) I would be glad to call friend. Just thought I would tell you that. I like polite disagreement and varying points of view."

Thank you for the compliment.  The sentiment is mutual.

Your views of religion vs spirituality are insightful.  I've been in the Western church system for 25 years.  I've been out of it for a little over a year, now, ever since my last church died.  It has taken me this long to see the complete ineffectiveness of the system to do as Yahweh teaches.  In fact, most often it prohibits the most important parts.  Because of it I am at the point of no longer calling myself a Christian, but instead claiming only to have a relationship with Jesus.

Although many Christians act morally out of fear of not being loved, the Bible is clear in teaching that obedience to the Father should be only as a response to being loved already.  Paul says, "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out all fear" and "This is love, not that we first loved Him, but that while we were yet His enemies (in our hearts) Messiah loved us and gave His life for us."

I have a friend here who calls himself a Druid because he loves the imperative, "Do what you will and harm no man."  He's gentle and giving an loves all different kinds of people and has tattoos over 80% of his skin so far.  I'm thinking you're probably a bit like him.  He, too, is a pleasure to be with.

@abchurch006@xanga - you know i like you your fun to play with my morals are to do what ever the fuck i want and i';; blow up anything i wish i have what i need to make what i call my "God fuckers" crosses blow apart and man its like fuckin fireworks and don't was't you breath on me i can't wait to see what death holds for me  

I'm an agnostic. I'll go ahead and throw that out there.

Want to add that I mean quite a number of the people in those countries, not all, of course. 

@Desert_Eagle_AE@xanga - who said it was easy to be a good person in the first place?  everyone has to learn to suppress those vindictive and selfish tendencies if we all hope to keep society working.  also, what are these nations to which you refer?  and what is necessarily immoral about their lifestyles and their "products"?  as an atheist/agnostic (i vacillate between the two), the idea that theists somehow have a monopoly over morality is rather arrogant and unfounded.  take the following for example:

Atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less numerous in the prison population (0.21%)

Japan (the most atheistic nation in the G-8) has the lowest murder rate while the United States (the most Christian nation in the G-8) has the highest. Japan used to have much stronger religious faith, and a state religion, and guess what: Japan was remarkably aggressive and militaristic when "Shinto" was at its peak, and during WW2, when its Emperor was regarded as a God.

Louisiana, with America's highest church attendance rate, has twice the national average murder rate.

http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/12/26/atheism-theism-and-violence.htm

Divorce rates among conservative Christians were significantly higher than for other faith groups, and much higher than Atheists and Agnostics experience (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm).

the statistics are not on your side.

@easalien@xanga - Impressive statistics!  It is obvious its not my side.  

As I had said before, Atheists who hang around around people with religions may be influenced by them.  So I think there are people who are Atheists in name, but deep in their hearts, God is in there.  On the other hand, there are people who claimed to belong to certain religion, yet doing every little thing that goes against the teachings of the religion .  These people do not truly belong to any religion in their hearts.  I feel religion is a good guidence for people to uphold their morals, but its still up to the individuals to really follow the teachings.

And about the statistics, I think upbringing, environment and education all play a part in influencing the results of the statistics.  So I don't think it is accurate to cite these statistics as a reflection of how Atheists and people with religion behave. 

I got to say that if the leader of a religion does not have his heart in the right place, he will use religion to propagate his agenda instead.  That's where things go wrong, like in the case of Japan in WWII. 

As for the countries I had mentioned, well, these countries are ruled by a particular political system, which in the past, persecutes religion leaders, teachers, merchants, intepreters, etc, for the elimination of hierarcy in the society.

@joshuadmeans - a man who eats not in faith condemns himself?  that seems rather harsh.  however,with all that said, if the the mark of a responsible, moral human being is taking responsibility for the things he/she has done, what makes hell such an abhorrent place?

considering we all fall short of the glory of god, isn't hell man's rightful place?  what i seem to "get" from most christians is that their love for god is only a direct corollary of their intense fear of hell.  however, by accepting jesus' absolution of your sins, isn't it necessarily saying that you no longer want to take responsibility for your life?

@Desert_Eagle_AE@xanga - i'll agree with you with one thing: our upbringing, socioeconomic status, and education all play a role in these findings.  however, i don't think it's fair to simply disregard them as irrelevant.  if we examine all the statistics, we'll see that atheists usually come from more educated and stable households.  the following statistics indicate a negative correlation between education and religiosity.  i kindly ask you to take a look at them.

http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/jesus/intelligence%20&%20religion.htm

also, you still haven't named a single one of these "atheistic, amoral" nations.

When googling for the definition of morals, I get:  "ethical motive:  motivation based on ideas of right and wrong."  Just because someone is atheist does not mean that that person does not know right from wrong.  People do not need religion to dictate these things.  There is such a thing as common sense which humans regularly employ.

yes