by
miss marigold 
The lively discussion generated by yesterday's
QOTD post about pets and the rapture reminded me of a pretty embarrassing "church faux pas" I made while teaching Catechism classes for children preparing for their First Communion.
Some background info in case you missed my
intro post: I grew up with a Roman Catholic family while attending an Evangelical Christian school. At the time, the tension between the Protestants and Catholics I knew was so distressing that I totally quit trying to argue about purgatory or whether or not my parents were idolaters because they prayed the Hail Mary. I declared myself non-denominational at heart, decided I didn't need the drama, and thus made the big mistake of ignoring the differences instead of learning more about them. .
So when a prominent parish member (and probably second place winner for the Most Hardcore Catholic Award, after the priest himself) asked me to teach his 4 and 6 year-old daughters, I accepted the job right away, thinking it'd be easy enough since I attended Bible classes 5 days a week. After teaching them for a couple of months, we got into the topic of the Second Coming....where I proceeded to tell these two little girls all about the rapture, the four horses of the apocalypse, and all that jazz since it NEVER crossed my mind that the rapture is not a part of the Catholic doctrine.
Needless to say, the two little girls looked totally amazed by "what is to come"...
So you can imagine my mortification when about a week later, my mom entered my room late at night to ask what exactly I'd taught during the previous Catechism class. Then she delivered three pieces of bad news:
Bad News #1: As little kids are apt to do, the girls had told their father all about what they'd learned from their ~*Catholic teacher*~...
Bad News #2: He was not happy, so naturally, he'd had "a little chat" with my mom.
Bad News #3: The next day was Sunday, so after Mass, he was planning to have a little chat with
me. I promptly surrendered to my Catholic tendencies and fervently prayed to God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary, and all the saints.
My memory of the subsequent conversation is pretty blurry, but I remember a lot of weak apologies on my part and a lot of eye-bulging and mouth-twitching on his. After what felt like an eternity of awkwardness, the "talk" ended and I fled for the hills (or rather, my dad's car outside the church.) I thanked God it was over....
...and, as usual, I spoke too soon. A couple of nights later, the man sent my parents a super long email forward about why the Left Behind books are a danger to society.
To make a long story short, my parents suggested I go talk to a priest about the ordeal and how I should reconcile my beliefs...and then HE ended up sending us an even longer fax (he was a little too old for email) about the official Catholic stance on the Second Coming.
While I didn't enjoy the drama, it did expose me to another set of beliefs. Call me naive or brainwashed, but at that age, I didn't consider that there was any other possibility that the end times could occur other than how they're depicted by those who believe in the rapture. After a little thought and a lot of studying, I ended up modifying my beliefs to fit a conclusion I'm more convicted about.
Moral of the story: Don't tell impressionable Catholic children that they and their parents might just disappear in the middle of the night, leaving behind clothes, chewing gum, or perhaps a retainer. On that same note, don't send non-Catholic children to the confession booth when they admit stealing a cookie from the cookie jar...
Have you ever offended another Christian (accidentally or otherwise) because of your difference in beliefs - whether they be about theology, worship methods, relationship standards, etc? How did you recover?
Comments (67)
wow! the dad emailed your parents?! dang...
i'm curious... do you still teach his kids?
Knowing that differences in Christian belief is very sensitive for many people, I am very, very cautious about how I talk about what the Church teaches and other aspects of my Catholic faith. However, I have met many Christians, Catholic and non-Catholic, who were not abashed in the least to point and scream all manner of things at me in a very public forum after I answered, "I am Catholic," when they asked which church I went to in the area.
"Marian worshipper!" "Cannibal!" "Vampire!" etc.
At the time I was terrified; I had no idea how to defend myself! But these days I have learned much more about the Church and her teachings, and I know enough to defend myself against such accusations and I have found that most instances of hostility, offence and faux pas are rooted very deeply in simply not knowing anything about the other, and people not knowing enough about their own.
well, this shows you how ignorant i am because i didn't realize that Catholics don't believe in the rapture! whoops.
well, official dogma is a rather silly thing to have. I like churches that take "stances"- sort of a "we believe this, but since it's not in the Bible, we won't call you a heretic if you disagree." I think the more hardcore you are about a debatable belief, the worse it is. As I've grown older, I think the one thing I've learned to say when it came to the major debates is "I don't know." I've tried to learn both sides of any argument, and after doing so, there are a lot of things I simply can not take a stance on (When the rapture will happen, for example- although based on reading Revelation as a chronological book, I'd have to say it will be some time during the tribulation, but before Jesus comes back- day of Jacob's trouble and all that).
Actually, these non-stances have offended people on both sides of the argument. I'm the guy that, when someone comes to me fuming about how so-and-so has different views, will say "well, you have to look at it from their side..." and then enumerate the Biblical reasons why their opinion is just as valid as the person I'm talking to. It's not a really popular thing to do, but honestly i think if we all tried to see the other side's point, there would be a whole lot less of this fighting crap. Then again, there most definitely is such thing as heresy, and I won't back down from defending against that (sorry folks, the Trinity is real, and not everybody goes to heaven...).
@Ancient_Scribe@xanga - You pray to a woman!!! you and your secret pro-lesbian agenda.
Actually, I think if protestants were honest with themselves, the only reason they're opposed to Marian doctrine is that Jesus came to destroy the dividing wall between people and G-d, and praying to Mary exhibits a need for a go-between. I've gone and talked to my dead relatives at their graves, and I don't really see it as a prayer... but yeah, trying to give supernatural powers to someone who was simply a human isn't really Biblical. Catholics are some great people, but I think their congregations need to get together, watch Dogma, and re-eval.
I used to pick fights all the time....
I've since given up on that because, most of the time neither of us had any intention of changing our views and were arguing for the sake of arguing (I still maintain that I won most of those arguments, and thus prove my point).
Now, when it comes to controversy, I agree to disagree with people for the most part. So long as their view makes Biblical sense and have helped them grow in their faith, I'm not going to tell them they're wrong.
As far as denominations go...I hate them. I hate the concept. I hate schisms. I hate the holier-than-thou B*S* that goes alone with it all. I don't call myself "non-denominational" even, because "non-denom" has become it's own denomination (every single non-denom church I've gone to is the same). So I go to whatever church I like, based on the people...I'm probably going to disagree with most of what they say, but that doesn't mean I can't learn something.
Do Catholics end their Bible at Jude? I find it strange that they don't believe something that's actually in the Bible.
Denominations don't have to believe the same thing, but they should all be based totally on Scripture; which is the Word of God after all.
Having grown up in a born again Christian household yet having a very devout, very spiritual catholic grandfather taught me to be respective of the different denominations. I am a big believer in that we can believe different things, from thinking it's right and wrong to eat certain things (my friend grew up with a strict can eat/can't eat background) to how to pray, how to worship.
I went to a catholic secondary school and whilst most of the stuff there seemed a little bizarre to me I went along with most things. I attended the masses we had to go through, did the prayers in every lesson, sign of the cross etc etc yet I remained firm rooted in my Christianity and how I do things. To be honest I found the masses, the prayers etc rather boring but what doesn't work for one person, works for someone else.
My grandfather was and remains, a huge spiritual inspiration to me. Knowing the Catholic 'traditions' etc, personally I can honestly say I couldn't find a spiritual path for myself in that. Yet my grandfather found a path to God through it, he was loved and respected by many and had a lot of love to spread around. Although his last years in life he suffered terribly from cancer he never wavered from his beliefs and his trust in God. My one criticism to the catholic church at that time was that the priest wouldn't come to visit him at home, yet my own pastor would visit three or four times weekly to read the bible to him and spend time with him in those last days. I'm not sure what the 'traditions' etc dictate on that front but surely compassion would see that his own priest would visit on occasion in his dying state.
So despite having a different set of beliefs, I think when it comes down to the wire as they say, it's all about the heart, not about the intricate details of what you believe. Whether you do the sign of the cross and pray with a set prayers over rosary beads, or just come to God to pray as you want, he sees where the heart is.
Such fights over things unimportant to salvation. This type if thing is garbage, that makes us all look like fools. Taking The Rapture so seriously is a good example. It is not a doctrine that has any importance no matter what you believe. I doubt the Roman Church is losing many people over the left behind books. No they are losing far more to Dawkins "God Delusion"
Now praying to Mary, well that has zero scriptural backing.
See it not hard to offend but we need to put these less important things aside. Now arguing over indulgences . . .
Hehe, growing up, my best friend was Catholic, and I went to a Christian and Missionary Alliance church. The first time I went to church with my friend and the bells went off before communion, I said "phone's ringin'!" really loudly. Her parents were flabberghasted. my friend's not Catholic anymore, though (she goes to my church), so we laugh about it now.
Also, my husband comes from a Catholic family (though we still attend the CMA church), and I really offended him when I said that Catholics practice idolatry. We had a big fight about it because his grandmother, who he had been very close to, was a devout Catholic.
Well, going to a pretty much all-baptist school, I get slammed a lot for being okay with churches that practice infant baptism (I go to one), to the point of them questioning whether I'm saved... but I think that it's more important to focus on where we agree than disagree.
@metal_core1@xanga - The rapture isn't in Revelation. Nor is it anywhere else in the bible, to be honest. The only verses supporting the rapture are misinterpretations. And this is coming from a mainline Protestant Pastor. I already made a response in the 'craigslist' post about how the rapture isn't biblical, you should check it out.
i'm sorry, but as an atheist, i find all of this to be rather silly. if you believe that christ is the son of god and that he came to absolve man of his sins through death on the cross, in my eyes, that renders you a christian. i don't see what all the strife and division is about...
there just seems to be a great deal of intense moral and intellectual confusion. that's all.
I was baptized Catholic and go to weekly Mass, plus a Baptist youth group and occasional Lutheran services as well. After meeting people of all kinds of denominations, I don't think anyone has exactly the same beliefs about everything. It's not a matter of, for example, "there are zero Catholics in the world that belive in "getting saved," so they're all going to hell." Frankly, that's extremely close-minded, and God certainly doesn't work that way. easalien, I think you're right. He asked us to believe Him. Can't we leave it at that and not worry so much about miniscule details?
well, i was braught up in an anglican church untill i was about 17(I now attend a church in the CRC group), but had many catholic friends, i got into alot of arguments, about how they would pray to Mary and the saints and about purgatory, until i realised...we both believe in the same God, why is there so much tension between us? so i stopped picking debates and sat down with some catholic friends and learnt more about what they had learnt. it def. made me stronger, and im glad i had the oppertunity to do it.
-Ronnie
No one believed in nor taught any such thing as a "rapture" separated from the Second Coming of Christ until little more than 100 years ago! None of the Reformers, pilgrims, nor Protestants fleeing Roman Catholic persecution in Europe in the 1600-1700s ever heard of any such thing, much less taught it. It is the invention of 19th-century revivalists looking to wake what they perceived to be a sleepy church out of her doldrums. How it became the majority report so quickly is a shameful testament to how far we have fallen from the faith of our fathers (the Protestant Reformers I mean).
@john@xanga - i don't teach his kids anymore (they've long since completed their First Communion and I wasn't around for their Confirmation classes...not like he'd hire me again anyway...), but it's definitely a little awkward when I go visit my home church.
@trunthepaige@xanga - I agree with you. there are those that believe in rapture and dont... those that believe in once saved always saved- those that don't ... and those that believe in tithes and those that dont...... what makes it worth... these are not subjects I believe belong on the pulpit.... They take away from the purpose of praise and worship.... !!!! The "Hail Mary"???? ..If you study scriptures... what did the Angel say to Mary when announcing she carried Jesus? Many interpretations.... But all boil down to LOVE.... It's that simple.
Patrick
@RobinzRantz@xanga - That's certainly true. But when you study Revelation, it makes no sense or mention of "the church" after Chap.4. That's when Gods wrath starts.
@shedinator@xanga - Dogma... that's the movie where Christ is portrayed by Alanis Morisette, correct? .. With, who was it, Jay and Silent Bob? ... I vaguely remember that movie. Just thought I'd let you know, haha.
When I first read about the Rapture of the Church, I was very young. A common error, I misread it as the Raptor of the Church. I imagined this amazing raptor that would descend from heaven and punish those that did not accept Christ. Growing up sucks.
I think my best experience was spending a couple hours arguing religious philosophy with a Mormon bishop or something another. It pretty heated a few times... I told him what if Joseph had his visions after eating the wrong kind of mushroom, then a whole religion was based on an acid trip. rofl... It was still good intellectual chat, but I think that I left him rather frustrated, but then again I wasn't the normal push over they get that normally end up in their facilities.
I didn't know the Catholic church didn't believe in the rapture. In fact, I have known some Catholics that did believe in the rapture.