I think you can forgive someone and not "love" them.  When my ex-boyfriend raped and assaulted me a few years ago, I learned quickly that the person I loved didn't exist.  It was a facade.  I have forgiven his actions, but do not love him.    

@fullmetalbunny@xanga - everyone is evil. i'm not trying to change your mind about anything. 

The sin comes FROM the sinner... what an absurd saying.

You don't love them, you torture them. =)

@musicmom60@xanga - "Can one forgive the sin, but not the sinner?  Or is it the other way around? ...I read many books on forgiveness - they all said the other person doesn't HAVE to be sorry, or to apologize, or to acknowledge the hurt, or to make reparations, for us to forgive them.  But how can that be true, when the Bible says that God requires US to repent, to confess, to be sorry, to "go and sin no more"?  And that he also requires us to go and tell the sin to other brethren and approach that person who is wrong, and that the sinful person should acknowledge their sin, apologize, and make reparations in order to be forgiven and accepted by the religious community?  Which way is it, really?  Can we forgive if the perpetrator is not sorry?"

I haven't read through all the comments, so I don't know if anyone responded to your questions or not.  I just want to share with you what a wise old woman told me once when I was struggling with these same questions.  She said forgiveness is a gift I give myself and the perpetrator.  Just because I forgive does not mean the perp will be sorry or repent or apologize.  So forgiveness does not equal reconciliation, and just because reconciliation does not happen does not mean I have not forgiven.  Nor does forgiveness mean that I don't feel hurt or angry ever again, or that I don't wish for an apology. 

Is it not the same with God's forgiveness?  His forgiveness is a free gift to all, but not all will receive it.   If a sinner/perp receives the gift of forgiveness, repentance and reconciliation with God will be the result.  If he won't, then he cannot be reconciled to God; he'll be cut off from God.

I don't feel like I can say with clarity all that I meant.  I'm kinda tired right now.  But I hope what I said makes sense.  They're good questions you're asking!

I served two years in a state prison here in Georgia for a white collar crime.  I spent a good portion of my sentence in an honor dorm because I was a firefighter (inmate firefighters earned special privileges) and the honor dorm was mostly filled with women inmates who were lifers or serving very long sentences.  Most were older and serving serious time for serious crimes of murder, assault and sex crimes.  On three different occasions I had to share a bunk with women who were sex offenders.  Two of them were for rape and molestation of a young child, the other was for statutory rape.  The thing is, in prison you have pretty much have to start to see these women as people, not for their crimes.  It was necessary to survive.  These women had been in a long time and had 'seniority'.  If I went in with an attitude and obvious problem with their crime, they would've eaten me alive.  Instead, I had an opportunity that most 'normal' people don't get.  I lived with them as a human being, not a news story you heard about on the 5 o'clock news.  It's much harder to hate someone when you live with them and know them and interact with them on a daily basis.  No, I'm not excusing their crimes - thinking about it still turns my stomach.  But I learned first hand why these women did these things.  The statutory rape was understandable (he was 16, one year below sexual consent age in Georgia, and she was 55).  The other two... I'm convinced that the majority of people who commit these crimes were once violated themselves.  They've either been taught this is 'normal' or something has happened in their mental wiring.  I'm not sure you can 'fix' someone who is a sexual predator.  If you can, it's only by extensive counseling and rehabilitation.  I am now a full time student on the road to becoming a Psychologist and my personal experience is driving me to find out about this very thing. Unfortunately, most states don't want to spend the money to find out if that would really work, they just keep dumping money and people into prisons which don't work anyway.  Now, as for the forgiveness thing... most of the women in prison, regardless of their crime, 'found God' while incarcerated.  There is very little to do to pass time in prison, and church is one of them so jailhouse religion was very common.  Most women come in and begin to cling to religion because it gives them something to focus on.  Some are true in their heart, most are not.  My whole point to this thing is that one thing is clear:  God is the only one who can and should decide His forgiveness, and who will or won't be redeemed.  It wasn't up to me to decide who was a true Christian and had been reformed and who hadn't.  He is the only one who knows what is true in their hearts.  I truly believe the worst of the worst - child predators, murderers, etc. - can be reformed if he or she chooses.  To say they couldn't seems like a lack of faith in God to me.  But we as humans spend way too much time judging others, even when we don't realize it.  ~Andi

This is a tough question for me because I lost my faith way before the third man assaulted me.

There can be no forgiveness, not from me. I can't see every sin according to the bible as equal, because stealing money from someone is not the same as stealing their innocence. Talking back to your mother or ignoring your father (honor thy mother and father) is not the same as performing sexual acts on a child or raping an adult. There are sins worse than others, and they should be treated as such.

If God can forgive someone for raping a child as easily as he forgives someone who who commits a "lesser" sin, then what is the reason for being good?

@tedder6@xanga - I do understand that. I am one of the first to say that my trust of them would be minimal if existent at all.  However, if you did watch that movie there is a bigger story of redemption that may play into their lives. Now most responses are that it is just a movie and that would never happen. But we can't know the future, maybe they can change their ways.  Chances are, no they won't but who are we to make that decision?  We are sinners just as they are.  We, as humans, have imperfect justice and perfect justice will not come until the earth is made new.  I am not intentionally being argumentative, I just think that sometimes we, as Christians, are too quick to say something is justice.  Is killing them really the proper punishment? Is keeping them in prison for life the proper punishment? More than likely not because these punishments are inventions of man.  No one on this earth can deliver pure justice to the crimes and sins of man, only God.  I am not trying to sway your opinion on this but really analyze what justice is and what forgiveness is really about.  I used to be pro death penalty myself, but the more I concentrate on what Scripture says about justice and forgiveness, I find myself in a very gray area.  Its not as easy as we would like to make it.

@the_earth_isnt_humming@xanga - I do understand where you are coming from. I just don't believe we should ever gives these people the oppourtunity to hurt another innocent. There has to be something broken in them in the first place for them to do these things. If someting like that happened to one of my children, I would do everything in my power to see that person never have that oppourtunity again. In the bible it says if you cause a child to stumble, it would be better for you to be thrown into the deepest ocean with a milstone chained around your neck.

@DirtyAndShaken@xanga - I am glad I read your comment...everything I say is coming from someone who has never been to a prison and has very little knowledge of this subject (basically I am talking out of the place where the sun don't shine!), but reading about your experiences in the prison and living with these people is very convicting. I thank you for sharing and I hope that you achieve your career as a psychologist and I hope that God works through you to help people (maybe a few of those people you talked about). God Bless.

"How do we hate the way God hates and love the way God loves?"

In short- you can't. God is perfect and we are not as much as we would like to be. I'm a female that was raised by an abusive mother- they don't write self help books on that one!
And yes, she was seriously mentally ill.

I was forced to hug and kiss her good night and be polite to her , tell her I loved her...all my childhood or else. I had to treat her with respect just like she was normal or else. 

 I was very blessed to have a lot of pastors teach me how to forgive her, despite my loathing of all she did to me. The trick is remember what forgiveness really is.

Forgiveness is not hating the person anymore- you can still hate what they did and should. You should care enough about yourself to avoid putting your self in harms way if at all possible.

But you stop hating the person or you become bitter and it can make you ill. Even more important is... You give that person over in the Lord's hands and let Him deal with them (and the court system when need be) That brought me the most comfort- because I know God may take his time but he is very just.

Forgiveness is not easy, it's always a work in progress, but it is a healthier and more peaceful way to live.