Monday, 14 July 2008
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Cursing: Where should Christians draw the line?
by mr. oak
Wanted to followup on a post from before - I think Mr. Pine did a great job at talking about cursing by saying "It's not prohibitive. It's proactive. What it's saying is that you should be so busy blessing people with your words (and the Good News) that there's no room for the other stuff."I can't agree with this more - but at the same time, I have no idea how to actually do this. Since college, I've been working at cleaning up my language mostly because I was really challenged by a few verses I've read in the Bible. But while I don't partake in the usual 4 letter bad words like the F-bomb, the S Word (otherwise known as swords for 1000), Golf, and other delightful expressions...but then there are the gray words where I'm not really all too sure...
Like darn, dang, crap, etc....I say these things without thinking and it has never crossed my mind that they were bad...until....
I once emcee'ed a Christian conference. There were about 1,200 people at this conference and one of the announcements I had to make was to advise everyone not to hang out in the hallways in their respective hotels. So I got up there and blurted "Please keep your noise levels down when you're outside of your hotel rooms - we don't want to piss off anyone while we're here!"
I heard some collective gasps. Since when was "piss off" a bad word?? But apparently it was, and I was rebuked by a staff member to be careful... but couldn't help but to feel like there was no way I could've known. Nevertheless, I learned from this and am wary of saying it (granted I just did - doh!)
I don't want this to be legalistic - and my basic metric is that it's up to me in the end. All things are permissible but not all things are beneficial. I try to never use such words towards people - I think that's the worst way to use them. On the other hand, I even hesitate to write things like "wtf" on my posts - moreover when I accidently bang my toe, I pause to think about what to say in exclamation (currently, it's burgerfrickle.....don't ask.)
How about you - if you watch your language, where do you draw your line?
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Comments (69)
I'm human, and yeah, I have my moments. In public or around other people whom I know will not appreciate bad language, I obviously 'go without'. If/when I have kids, same thing. That being said, I don't mean to sound like a double standard. It's not like I have a swearing habit I keep at home in the closet. I just have common respect for other people. But to me, it's all in the context of the word and how you use it. I mean, saying 'oh crap' is the same as saying 'oh shit'. The feeling and meaning behind it are exactly the same, you just use a different phonetic sounding word, right? Words are what you make of them. I guess I was raised quite liberally where the power of curse words, the power our society gives them, was zapped from early on. It was no longer interesting for us to use them. I hope that makes sense. ~Andi
Well, sometimes I just had to say it, so I wd say, "oh, (BLEEP)" lol =)
I think its just ridiculous how obsessed Christians are with straining out gnats, like the word crap, when camels like our general surrender to harmful gossip are always on the run in our lives.
To draw lines is to be legalistic. Especially since fuck is a common word in Britain, like crap here, and language is always changing. AND because we see Jesus and John the Baptist using the curse words of his day.i didn't really use a lot of words like that a few years ago (mostly because i do not usually speak English... and in Russian / Ukrainian, all those words sound...dunno...bad. the only thing i say (that drives mom nuts) is bleen, which basically means a pancake and comes from a saying we've got "first pancake is always a disaster"...), but i started using dang probably a year ago when i was in the U.S.... not even sure why... i guess i just needed something to say when i am frustrated and if i would lapse into russian, my friends would think that i am cursing for real... yannow...
mostly i try to draw the line depending on who am i with... i am trying to limit how much i say dang or bleen, but mostly because those aren't really necessary words in the speech... otherwise, if i am frustrated, i get real quiet, so i don't speak much anyway...
@HeartOfPandora@xanga - Exactly my thoughts.
Also, think about this: in the original Greek, Paul didn't simply call people homosexuals. He called them assfuckers. If it was such a sin, would it have been in the Bible (before we well-meaning social do-gooders took it out)?
@HeartOfPandora@xanga - I like the way you phrased it. I totally agree
I generally try not to, and usually do okay with it, but I'm not perfect. It's one of my last-resort expressions of frustration. When it happens, I avoid s-bombs and f-bombs, though I surprised myself last night by being so frustrated I almost let out an f-bomb (thankfully, I held my tongue).
For me, the line where cursing goes from being a word to being a real detriment is when it's used at someone. Like, (to me anyway), there's a difference in being frustrated at a situation and saying "d*&%" and saying "d*&% you!" In the first, you're frustrated at the situation. In the second, you're actually cursing a person, telling them to be damned. That's definitely not uplifting. That's why I try to avoid calling people curse-word names, and saying anything with the formula "**** you!"
i think it can be absolutely ridiculous the lines people draw, I can understand why certain words draw a "collective gasp" but Piss, dang, darn, etc... personally i believe it is okay. I grew up in a generation where these words are a natural part of the Californian language, for people not to use them would cause a massive identity loss, sociological speaking.
I also understand that for many conservatives these could later on adapt a worse meaning, but i draw your attention to the Recess episode where the word WOMPS came into question. all i can say is that the adults were RIDICULOUS!
Overall, I agree that cursing is horrid, not only does it show your vulgarity as a person but it also shows your stupidity. There are so many more creative words in the English Dictionary that to lower yourself into using words that can hold the same meaning is just plain stupid.
How damageing would it be for a new christian see a "older and wiser" christian to swear....they would would probably say..."whats the difference?" I think you should refrain as much as possible with God's strength and conviction not to cause someone else to stumble.
@Goken -
Ok. I understand that you are trying to draw comparisons such as… ‘brood of vipers’ is “roughly the equivalent of saying” ‘son of a b&%$#’. While I understand the logical progression of your case here; I believe you are leaving out two important elements that throw your case out.
1. You must consider the relevant culture of the time. I don’t think we have any hard evidence that the phrase ‘brood of vipers’ was considered crude cursing at the time. We do know that in our current culture there are certain curse words that are offensive and some more than others. If words are considered crude, then I don’t know of any time that Jesus used them. He was firm or stern, maybe even rude but not crude.
You are correct in that Jesus used very tough or stern words with people at times. However, Jesus never deliberately set out to offend people by using words designed to merely shock or inflict some type of verbal abuse. His goal was always to lead people to the truth of the Gospel. We see in the bible that He reserved his harshest words for those who were deliberately leading people away from truth for their own gain or to hold on to their own power (the Pharisees and Sadducees for example). He also used harsh words (and exhibited righteous anger) when he chased the vendors out of the temple for turning it into a business rather than a place of worship. He used harsh words so that others around would clearly understand the truth (and guide them to it),while chastising some only for the purpose of guiding them back to truth (just as you might show anger to your child when he/she has done something terribly wrong- to be angry without sin). We know this because Jesus himself explains in the Gospels why he had come.
This leads me to the second and most important element:
30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment.31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.There is no other commandment greater than these.”
If love is His greatest commandment, then we have to ask ourselves. Will using particular words (curse words or otherwise) draw or point someone to the truth of the Gospel and encourage them to embrace Christianity? This was Jesus’ goal. Or, will the words repel someone and discourage them from Christianity?
If we are honest; we have all experienced times when our words or actions pushed someone away from the Gospel. We have all had times when we have said things we later regretted. I know I have. So I can say from experience, when I use foul language it has never drawn someone closer to God or to embracing the Gospel.
So, in conclusion I disagree with your case here. I do not find examples in the Bible where we know for a fact where words used were known to be ‘culturally’ crude in their time. Additionally; experientially I know of no one who accepted Christ after being cursed at. However, I could be wrong; until I know that I am wrong; I will error on the side of caution and be sure to exhibit love. I will be angry when appropriate, yet without sin.
If the foul words we use turn someone away from Christ, or provide them an excuse to remain their unbelief, then we need to change our language.
“In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity” – Martin Luther
@Grampa_David@xanga - Thanks - I give it my best
@pmiller683@xanga - I'd like to preface this with, if anything I say sounds harsh, please understand that I'm not insulting you even a little bit! I may be critical of the words and concepts in your reply, but they are not personal in the slightest. You seem like an intelligent and thoughtful person, and I'm glad you took the time to respond like you did. And not to get ahead of myself, but careful correction is an expression of love, which is what I'm aiming for here.
If you look at the context of Jesus's insult to the Pharisees, it's very clearly an insult. It seems obviously rude. Now, I admit, I haven't done an in-depth exegetical study on the greek used there ("gennema echidna"), but a word-study I have read said the phrase was a commonly used insult with a crude connotation. I do know from personal study the injurious nature of insulting any Jewish man's ancestry in the Ancient Near East context. I would suggest that it would be nearly as insulting as calling an African American the N-word. Crude or not, it certainly doesn't fall into the context of "our words being so filled with blessings that we don't have time to cuss".
You say we don't know for a fact that the Bible uses crude words, but that simply not the case. I'll let the previous example slide. We still have the example I discussed in my original comment (which you've not addressed for some reason?) where Paul says bullshit. As much as any etymologist can say of a long-dead language, there is every reason to believe that this word was considered very crude and was not used in polite society. It's a cuss word, friend. There's no logical way around it.
Then we have Paul's use of the word "foreskin" which is an insult he levels at the Judaizers. A commentary I read once described the crudeness of the word as being equivalent to calling someone a "dickhead". Here we have another word that most evangelical Christians would consider a cuss word, and again it's in the Bible.
Finally, we have King Saul's use of the phrase "son of a whore". Again, very rude and very crude. Again, in the Bible.
This is the Bible that Evangelicalism doesn't want you to know about! Show me where the Bible says Christians shouldn't cuss and I'll concede and apologize. Until then, I'm going to insist that we're basing our belief that cussing is a bad idea on our Christian sub-culture's misinterpretation (and occassional misappropriation) of verses. This is why most of the Church's greatest theologians cussed in their writings. Not just in their private lives, mind you.
The Greatest Commandment (and the Second) are very important to me and they're why I'm so passionate about why Christians should cuss! I don't know any non-Christians who are offended by cussing. I know a lot of non-Christians who like to cuss.
In the first century, Christians taught new converts that in order to be a good Christian they had to eat like a Jew and be circumcised. Paul called those people dickheads. Now, Christians have taken Paul's admonition against doing that too literally. We don't teach our converts they have to subscribe to Jewish food laws, but we've missed the entire point Paul was making (Christians live by grace, not rules). In the twenty-first century, we teach new converts that in order to be a good Christian they have to stop cussing and stop drinking.
I don't see how, in love, we can pile on these polite burdens on the backs of new believers. I don't see how, in love, we can honestly tell our agnostic friends "No, I can't say that. I have to be set apart!" What bullshit! How insulting. That's never been what the Bible meant by being set apart. That's why Jesus ate with sinners.
In today's culture, sharing a meal with a prostitute or a criminal doesn't have the same connotation as it did in Jesus's day. It was a sign of identification and relation, you're saying you're their equal when you eat with them. That's why the religious people wouldn't do it. They had to prove they were set apart.
Today, that meaning isn't there when it comes to eating meals. But we have our own version. Language is a means to identify with subcultures in our world. The geeks have leet speak, the gangbangers (and wannabes) have ebonics, the yuppies have buzz words, and Christians have plenty of our own words. Cussing is something almost every non-Christian does and too few Christians do. Cussing is our chance to identify and relate to those who don't believe, to say that we're they're equal. We're not better. We're not set apart because of the things we do, we're set apart by God's grace alone.
As far as being a poor testimony? I've been a Christian for 10 years, but I only started cussing seven months ago (after much study and thought). Even in that short of a time, I can tell you many stories where I got to show someone love because I cussed that I wouldn't have been otherwise. That's reason enough for me.
P.S. I know I already said it, but it bears repeating given you quoted him. Martin Luther was known for cussing a lot.
@Goken -
Wow – I am not sure what to say here. You have tried eloquently to explain your opinion. You wrote – ‘We still have the example I discussed in my original comment (which you've not addressed for some reason?) where Paul says bullshit’ - I am not sure how or what sources you conducted this study from.
You wrote – ‘A commentary I read once described the crudeness of the word as being equivalent to calling someone a "dickhead". Here we have another word that most evangelical Christians would consider a cuss word, and again it's in the Bible.’ - What commentary, by whom, are they credible?
I have also been a Christian for many years. However, more importantly than how long I have been a Christian is who has been teaching and discipling me. When I allow myself to be ‘teachable’ I have a responsibility to filter what I am being taught through scripture in the Bible. The truest way to test someone’s teaching, theology, etc. is to examine it against scripture. After many years of being taught (at church, in bible college classes, one-on-one with a pastors, elders, mentors, etc). I have never heard anything remotely close to what you are suggesting here. Again, this is why I question the source, who researched it, taught it and if they are respected and recognized in the Christian community as credible.
You wrote – ‘This is why most of the Church's greatest theologians cussed in their writings. Not just in their private lives, mind you.’ – again not sure who you are talking about here.
You wrote – ‘Show me where the Bible says Christians shouldn't cuss and I'll concede and apologize.’ This is a flawed argument. Obviously words and their meaning change over time. Jesus, Paul, other authors contained within the Bible did not provide us with a list of acceptable or unacceptable words. The word tells us to tame the tongue and use words that edify. That is very clear in the Bible. Just because you can’t find a list of bad words that are forbidden or a commandment that reads ‘thou shall not cuss’ does not mean it is a good thing. At some point we have to use common sense and again ultimately filter it through scripture.
You wrote - ‘I don't see how, in love, we can pile on these polite burdens on the backs of new believers.’ - A burden???? Since when is it consider a burden to be careful how we speak? As I explained in my earlier post, I used to cuss often. After becoming a believer, I knew I needed to clean up my language. It did not come easily; but I would not call it a burden and it was worth it. I have definitely led more people to the Lord as a result of taming my tongue. The Bible tells us that there is no burden that we cannot handle with Jesus, and that God will not give us more than we can bear. Calling it a burden is simply not accurate
You wrote – ‘I don't see how, in love, we can honestly tell our agnostic friends "No, I can't say that. I have to be set apart!" What bullshit! How insulting. That's never been what the Bible meant by being set apart. That's why Jesus ate with sinners.’
– I am not suggesting that we expect our non believing, agnostic, atheist, etc. friends to stop cussing. After all, they are not believers, and therefore most likely accept scripture and unfailing and perfect. But, the word does tell us that we should be ‘set apart’ what the Bible calls holy. Jesus hung out and ate with sinners and the outcasts of society, BUT, he didn’t talk or act like them. We do not find that anywhere in scripture.
Lastly you wrote – ‘but it bears repeating given you quoted him. Martin Luther was known for cussing a lot.’
It is also true that Martin Luther openly talked and wrote about his deep feelings of remorse and conviction for his behavior. He was known to cry out to God, begging him for forgiveness for his sins and praying for days at a time as a result. He was clearly not pleased with his own behavior and likened himself to Paul as ‘chief among sinners’ – Got to keep it in context my friend! God Bless!
@pmiller683@xanga -
You wrote – ‘We still have the example I discussed in my original comment (which you've not addressed for some reason?) where Paul says bullshit’ - I am not sure how or what sources you conducted this study from.
Dude... I linked a study right in the original comment. It's more than adequate support from a qualified source.
There are a wide variety of sources available, a multitude. Do a word study on it. I spent hours upon hours studying the word for myself. I don't have a shortcut for you.
What commentary, by whom, are they credible?
http://lookingcloser.org/features/whogivesa.htm gives a reference to Robert Jewett's book. You can even read it online. Robert Jewett is a New Testament scholar of some renown. Interestingly enough, this website also makes the case that Jesus says the word, "shithole".
I have also been a Christian for many years. However, more importantly than how long I have been a Christian is who has been teaching and discipling me. When I allow myself to be ‘teachable’ I have a responsibility to filter what I am being taught through scripture in the Bible. The truest way to test someone’s teaching, theology, etc. is to examine it against scripture. After many years of being taught (at church, in bible college classes, one-on-one with a pastors, elders, mentors, etc). I have never heard anything remotely close to what you are suggesting here. Again, this is why I question the source, who researched it, taught it and if they are respected and recognized in the Christian community as credible.
I didn't mention the length of my Christianity as proof of my qualification. I mentioned it because in all that time, before I decided to cuss, I really wasn't cussing. In those 10 years, I only ever said two cuss words, both were damn, and they were said at the same time during a break up with a girlfriend. I'm not excusing a behavior. I'm showing how Scripture convinced me to cuss.
As far as my qualifications are concerned, I have a B.S. in Bible and I am a Pastor. As far as the qualifications of the scholars I am quoting (no offense to your pastors or mentors, I'm a pastor, too, but they can't qualify as biblical scholars unless they're pulling down a Master's or Doctorate in the related fields), they just win. Look at the very first source I quote. Dude's got a Ph. D.
This isn't me hearing this from one person, though. I first heard it from the theology professors at my bible college. That made me take a step back and examine it. I researched it. There is lots of scholarly support for my position.
You wrote – ‘This is why most of the Church's greatest theologians cussed in their writings. Not just in their private lives, mind you.’ – again not sure who you are talking about here.
This is the second comment that seems to miss something I said in my first comment. If you're not reading everything I'm writing, we're going to end up running circles around each other. "Paul did it, Augustine did it, Luther did it, Lewis did it, and that's how I'm gonna do it!"
This is a flawed argument. Obviously words and their meaning change over time. Jesus, Paul, other authors contained within the Bible did not provide us with a list of acceptable or unacceptable words. The word tells us to tame the tongue and use words that edify. That is very clear in the Bible. Just because you can’t find a list of bad words that are forbidden or a commandment that reads ‘thou shall not cuss’ does not mean it is a good thing.
What is truly a flawed argument is suggesting that "taming the tongue" and using "words that edify" means that we can't say cuss words. Can I get a little exegesis?
Secondly, why can't I expect to find "thou shall not cuss" in the Bible? Koine Greek had cuss words. Hebrew, Aramaic had cuss words. Clearly the people of God were using them (well, King Saul, Jesus, and Paul, at least). If God wanted it to stop, why didn't he say so? If he could manage to tell them not to eat shrimp or not to grab each other's crotches during an argument, why didn't he bother to mention "No Cusses"? There's no prohibition against cussing in the Scriptures, and if it is a sin, that doesn't make very much sense.
Jesus hung out and ate with sinners and the outcasts of society, BUT, he didn’t talk or act like them.
Really? Because eating like them would fall under acting like them in my book. For further support, read about the disciples breaking Sabbath laws by eating grain on the Sabbath. Jesus encouraged them to act like sinners.
Got to keep it in context my friend!
Ironic, given that you decontextualize my quote (as well as Luther's use of cuss words) in the same paragraph. Luther was a remorseless cuss-er who cussed in works he published with full intent to cuss. Because, you know, there's no reason to think some words are inherently sinful or that a Christian can't use impolite words. Just look at Paul's "The Judaizers can go cut off their penises!" Impolite to say the least!
In your reply, you spent your entire time attacking what I said. Which, for a time, can make my argument seem weak. But what is noticeably lacking is an argument for your position. All you seem to have is an argument (that I've taken a great deal of time to try to debunk) against my position. This is telling.
Again, I totally respect you and appreciate all the time you've invested in this. I'm not even a little angry at you and I hope the same is true for you of me. It's been cool to meet with you and throw some of this back and forth.
Grace and peace,
Ken
My youth pastor (when i was still a youth...) always used to say "if you can't do it or say it in front of your gramma.... then don't."
i always thought that was a pretty good rule of thumb... granted, all grandmothers are different in their levels of liberal-ness, and this phrase should be taken with a grain of salt....
then again though... i'm now nearing 23 and I smoke and drink occassionally and I curse.... a lot, sometimes.
So, i guess it's a personal decision.
We censor ourselves when the time is appropriate.
Being a Christian, everything that we do and say should glorify God, but realistically, in today's world- we can't relate to the non-christians if we all pretend we're not sinner's too.
Running the risk of sounding awful and blasphemous, which is not my intention, I guess what I'm saying is that... while we're all Christians, and we all love Jesus-- we have to have free will and use our own minds to answer delimmas like this one.
Just the words that get bleeped on TV.
i'd say it depends on the occasion. in a big christian event, everything should be g-rated, no obscenities, not even HINTS of obscenity. during normal life, i think "dang, crap.." are alright. i'd draw the line in using the nastiest ones, such as the f-, c- and d-words.
I grew up in the Mormon church (a horror story for a later date, thank you), and I was taught to say other things instead of curse words, like frick, frack dang , fang, slippin, rippin, etc.....Became a Christian about 8 years ago. Here's my 2 cents. You might not be saying the actual word but the intent is the same, the heart of what you are doing. Wasn't that what Jesus came to say? "Hey, dude, you may not have murdered your neighbor, but your hate was merely a replacement for that murder that is in your heart."
Either you say it or you don't- no point in disguising it. God knows the hearts of all men....
it's the attitude and the intentions behind the word