Tuesday, 08 July 2008

  • It is Impossible to Believe in Christianity and Evolution at the Same Time

    from thetheologianscafe

    creation The Bible is clear about a few truths.  One of those truths is how the world was created.  The Bible says, "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth." (Gen. 1:1).  It is impossible to say that you believe in the Bible and then turn around and to deny the clear teachings of the Bible.

    The Bible then goes on to spell out how the Earth was created:

    "And God said, 'Let there be light,' and there was light.   God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.  God called the light 'day,' and the darkness he called 'night.' And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day."  (Gen. 1:3-5).

    The Bible clearly indicates that God created the Earth.  But it goes on to show how He created the Earth.  He created it in 6 days and then rested on the 7th day.  Look at the passage above.  Notice how the Bible refers to a day and a night?  The passage breaks it down by days.

    The Bible goes on to teach about the second day:

    "And God said, 'Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.' So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse 'sky.' And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day" (Gen 1:6-8).

    Once again the Bible clearly teaches a literal day.

    The teaching of creationism is fundamental to understanding the whole Bible.  If a person was to sit down and read the first three chapters of Genesis, he/she would walk away with an understanding that God created the Earth and that He created the Earth in six days.

    I have never struggled with any evidence that the Earth was older than what the Bible teaches.  Why?   Imagine with me for a moment that you were with a few doctors standing next to Adam five minutes after he was created.  Imagine that we had the doctors examine Adam and tell us how old he was in years.  The doctors would probably tell us that Adam was about 20 years old (or however old Adam appeared).  But how old was Adam?

    At that moment, he was only five minutes old.  Why were the doctors wrong?  The doctors were smart people.  They were intelligent people.  They were guessing Adam's age based on their current data.  But they were wrong.  Why?  Because God had just created Adam as a supernatural act.  God created Adam in his mature state.

    Now do you remember when Jesus made the wine?  The wine was declared the best.  If you took a group of scientists and had them examine the wine, they would come up with an age.  They may guess 5 years old.  They may guess 10 years old.  But how old was the wine five minutes after Jesus created it?  It was five minutes old.  Why were the scientists wrong?  They were wrong because they were using all the data they ever knew to make a decision.  But their data didn't include the possibility of a supernatural act.

    But Christians are afraid to say they believe God created the Earth.  So they compromise.  They will come up with some sort of happy medium that indicates they can believe in creation as taught in the Bible and also believe in evolution.  These Christians show they are far more concerned about what people around them think than having a Biblical worldview.

    Those Christians are afraid to appear like they are anti-intellectual by disagreeing with the majority of the scientific community.  So they compromise the first few chapters of the Bible in order to conform to the conventional wisdom of the day.

    The problem with those Christians is they have compromised everything with a compromise of the truth of God's word.

    Is it possible to believe God created the Earth and believe in evolution at the same time?

Comments (527)

  • msoh4377@xanga

    tough question. i know people that believe that God MADE evolution. i personally don't believe in it. creation all the way!

  • MCTCanadian@xanga

    you would have to argue that God didn't speed up the evolutionary progress to create animals and humans.

    I think you're getting the Big Bang Theory, and the theory of evolution mixed up. I do think some people can believe in God created life through the process of evolution (although I do not necessarily agree).  Creation of the earth through the process of the Big Bag, it doesn't make any sense at all. 

  • gogreen3@xanga

    "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth." How much time passed between this verse and the next? This was before the first day. I don't believe in macro evolution but I honestly can't say that the earth is only 6 thousand years old.  

  • shedinator@xanga

    I'm confused, your title states that it is clearly impossible, but your blog asks whether or not it is...


    Anyway, let me first start by saying I believe in 7-day creation, 6 thousand year old earth, the whole shebang.


    Now that I've established that, there are some hard questions to ask. 


    1)"There was evening, there was morning- the second day" does seem pretty simple.  An evening and a morning are denoted by a sunset and a sunrise.  you can make arguments about the rotation of the earth, but Moses believed the Earth had four corners and the Sun revolved around the Earth- no rotations there.  The Sun was not created until day 4.  What determined the strictly regulated 24 hour day before the existence of the sun?


    2) Genesis 1:27 literally says "he made them male and female" on the 6th day.  But Genesis 2:22 describes the making of Eve as occuring after He rested on the 7th day.  It is admittedly difficult to reconcile the idea of Adam and Eve being the first two humans if a literal reading of the Bible implies there was at least one other woman before her, is it not?


    Evolution has certainly occured.  You can make arguments of microevolution vs. macro vs. cosmological vs. whatever other kind, you want.  The definition of Evolution is "Adaptation due to beneficial mutation."  We have witnessed this process.  It has never truly been a question as to whether one can believe in both.  We do, we just use words like "adaptation" and "microevolution" to make ourselves feel like we're not buying in to a lie.  The issue that exists with evolution is just how much it has happened.  I believe Men were created unique, not developed from a previous primate, but the reason we are In G-d's own image is not our bodies, it is our immortal soul.  It is possible to have evolution without making it so dramatic as everything slowly evolving from single-celled organisms.  In fact, the existence of races, combined with the Adam and Eve story, or the Noah one if you like, indicates that humans have evolved ever-so-slightly in to different colors and the like.  The Big Bang may have occured when G-d said "Let there be light."  You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater if you say that it is impossible to mix the two theories.  What is impossible is to accept the creatorless origin that scientists provide while also believing in a Creator.  If the good Lord decided to start with one dog and develop all dogs, wolves, foxes, whatever else from it, that's His business, and it's fine with me.  If He started with just 100 animals, 10 animals, even 1 animal, and developed them one from another, He's G-d, He can do that, and I'm not one to object.  The fact is, we can know WHAT He did- created the world in 7 days- without knowing HOW He did it, and if His methods produced results that have given Scientists the evidence that they have (which they obviously did) then so be it.  I'm not G-d, you're not G-d, His ways are not ours.  I say why don't we stop debating it and just ask Him when we meet Him.  Does your salvation really depend on it?

  • shedinator@xanga

    @MCTCanadian@xanga - the Big Bang is just a theoretical way of explaining why the universe is spreading out.  What if in the beginning when G-d created the heavens and the earth, he made everything and set it in motion?  That's not really a problem, actually I think most Creationists, myself include, view it as fact.  Maybe the thing in the middle of the Big Bang, it wasn't two particles colliding, but the words of G-d being set into motion.

  • darwinsjesus

    The bible is not a history textbook; it is so much more than that.  Frankly I find no contradiction between a belief in a creator and an understanding and acceptance of evolution.  The idea of evolution, the idea that there is as grand design and order to it all...that it's not just chaos, for me, supports the idea of a great designer...a creator...a god who started it all.  Look how well genesis actually correllates with what scientists espouse: light (stars) are created, then water and and land rises and seperates from the water (geomorphology).  Sure, no scientist will ever say the earth was created in 6 days...is it possible to accept evolution and still believe in a supernatural act that created it all...set it all in motion?  of course its possible.  Infact, the wonderful scientific lens through which i view the world continually affirms my believe in a divine creator of it all. 
    With that said, i think it would do you well to have an open mind on this subject.  If you want to interpret literally a short paragraph on how the earth was created that's your choice, but i really hope you examine what i've said here.  With that I'll leave you with a quote from Albert Einstein:
    "Religion without science is blind, science without religion is pointless"

  • adifferentkindofbeautiful@xanga

    I don't see why not. Evolution exists. We have proof of that. And evolution is not the same thing as the earth's creation, however it happened.

  • haemina@xanga

    i think you can believe in both, as long as you clarify what evolution really is.  there are different types of evolution (unfortunately i don't recall all of them now, although i think there are 7?) so although i, as a christian, do not believe that humans evolved from apes, i do believe that certain species did evolve to better adapt to their changing environments.

    but yes, if we're talking about creation of the heavens and earth in 6 days, then yes i take the bible literally.  it seems impossible, but then what is impossible with God?

  • nloucks@xanga

    I have no problem with anyone that wants to believe in a literal 6-day creation.  Many of the people in my life are literalists.  Maybe seminary and undergrad ruined me but based on my understanding of the grammatical structure and poetic parallelism, the basis for the use of the word 'yom' and other contextual indicators, and my understanding of the purpose and intent of Genesis (being the telling of God's formation of a people for Himself), I'm left being an old-earth creationist. 

  • shedinator@xanga

    @haemina@xanga - you've been watching Kent hovind   He's in prison these days for tax evasion btw.  Macroevolution, Microevolution, Cosmological Evolution, Social Evolution, and Technological Evolution are the 5 I recall him talking about.  The Evolution being discussed here is that of organisms, something Hovind broke in to Macro and Micro.  The majority of Evolutionists do not use these terms, they were created by Christians, and they ignore the original definition of Evolution.  What needs to be clarified is how far you believe evolution went. Scientists see gradual changes in species over time, some conclude that this implies even greater changes have occured that we have not seen, others conclude that these small changes are all there is.  I wish someone in the Scientific community would coin a term for the evolution from one species in to another species (where the difference between species is that they can not produce viable offspring) because that is the part of the theory that I don't agree with.


    Actually, one of the best ways to put it is that you believe in the fact of evolution, just not the theoretical conclusions that have been reached based on it.


    @adifferentkindofbeautiful@xanga - I think you're right.This post deals much more with the origin of the universe than the evolutionary process, but you may as well adress both.

  • shedinator@xanga

    @nloucks@xanga - ah, but what about the word Barah?  hope I spelled that right, not good at the transliteration thing.  To create from nothing seems to indicate a pretty sudden happening, not a process   Which seminary did you go to?  You look like my friend Colin in your profile pic.

  • Kinszilla@xanga

    Someone stated previously that there was a difference in evolution and creation, and I agree with that.  As a christian you can believe in both considering how the earth was made is completly different then how life advanced.  Taking aspects of both to create a theory in which you would believe in, is to me compleltly reasonable.

  • Justme_234@xanga

    People who disagree with evolution need to wake up a bit.

    I'd like to hear them explain Noah's ark, Genetic diseases, jumping genes, butterflies developing immunities against parasites, why we can't cure AIDS, etc.

  • iammarlo@xanga

    I am a Christian who believe in Jesus Christ and that God created the Heavens and the Earth and who most definitely believes that things most CERTAINLY evolve.

  • mariqueenofscots@xanga

    tough question.  i prefer to choose to believe in the bible and that the big bang was all god.  however, my fil was on the big bang team and he actually believes in both.  unitarians believe in both.

  • shedinator@xanga

    @Justme_234@xanga - ...I'm not really seeing the Noahs ark complaint.  Unless you're discussing the idea that Noah took proto-species (one kind of dog, one kind of cat, etc) and they speciated and repopulated in all the various forms. Nevermind, I see exactly what your complaint is.

  • shedinator@xanga
  • dancerqt66@xanga

    I took a class on cosmology this past year (how the universe functions). Fact is, even the big bang theory has some holes in it. Who's to say God didn't create the universe THROUGH the big bang?

    Scientists have had to invent Dark Matter and Dark Energy to explain some of the crazy accelerations that happened during the formation of our universe. God? ... I think so.

  • seedsower@xanga

    Great   post and comments,glad to see this site moving right along.

  • thewanderingazn

    Interesting post.  I asked a similar question in my first post (and still my only post).  I personally don't think that believing in christianity precludes a belief in the process of evolution nor does an understanding and acceptance of said process exclude a belief and faith in God.  If you say that it is impossible for the two to be reconciled, then where do I go with where I believe and what I know?  I am a molecular biologist who firmly believes in the sovereignity and power and holiness of God, yet at the same time I do accept that the process of evolution occurs.  As a scientist in training, I need to look at the evidence that has been collected and come to some conclusive statment that properly answers and describes the situation.  Looking at what we know about genetics and the similarities of genes and various rates of mutations, it is not improbable that evolution occured.  However, evolution as we currently describe it may be a misinterpretation of the data.  Of course, it is hard to track the rates at which various beneficial mutations arise in a large population.  As you said, the best wine that Jesus made and the physical age of Adam would be completely off because it is a misinterpretation of the data. 



    While evolution may very well be a huge misinterpretation of the data we have, it does not necessarily exclude the existence and involvement of God in the universe (and in our lives).  The issue I believe at the heart of this debate is whether or not God is given the credit and honor for the existence of the universe and the life that lives on this earth (and perhaps other worlds in the universe).  The process by which evolution occurs is the rise of a mutation in the genetic coding of an organism that randomly happens to be beneficial to the organism and allows it to live and reproduce more effectively.  If one attempts to explain that life as we know it arose through evolution without God taking a part in the process, it is nearly impossible that life as we know it would arise (chances are very very close to zero).  In contrast, if a person believes that God had a hand in the process of evolution (influencing the environment to select for a specific mutation and perhaps causing the various mutations), it is not impossible that evolution would occur.  Looking at the similarities between the proteins and genes that exist in every living thing, from viruses to the trees to cattle to us humans, it is a beautiful thing to see these connections not because it came to be through a random process, but by the artistic and subtle yet powerful hand of God.



    If evolution occured under the guiding process of God, it is beautiful and a display of God's mastery and power for it involves a complexity that no human mind could fully comprehend and only the mind of God could comprehend and shape it in a way to further make creation beautiful.  If creation occurred, it shows God's mastery and power because no other person or thing could cause the inception of the universe we live in.  Both views can fully support the majesty of God.



    Or one could say that God used the coding from one animal and re-used that bit of coding in another new animal with a slight twist to make it unique yet serve the same function (an example would be coding for a protein that transports ions across the cell membrane except it changes one amino acid for a simlar amino acid).  However God created the universe (via instant creation as viewed by a literal reading of genesis or evolution in a subtle yet artistic manner) does not detract from the main point:


    God is Holy and perfect, we are neither holy nor perfect and God requires death for this because his holiness cannot tolerate imperfection, Jesus is God's son and God in the flesh.  He lived a perfect life, died in our place, and rose up from the grave in three days so that we would have the chance to be called the children of God.  All that we must do to receive this is to accept the lordship of Jesus over our lives and confess and repent for our wrongdoings.

  • flying_nutshell@xanga

    Your explanation actually made a lot of sense to me. I'd never thought of creation like that before!

  • esch99@xanga

    I don't assume that morning/evening/day are literal. Not taking those as some literal 24 hour period does not = throwing out the Bible. There are problems even within the different "versions" of Creation within Genesis that would cause problems for the literalist.

    If the last question really was "Is it possible to believe that God created the Universe/Earth/all species in a literal six days AND believe that evolution was the mechanism behind the current diversity of species" then I would say no. There are problems with a God that would create dinosaur fossils.

    I've come to believe that when it comes to the development of our world, the Bible and evolution/cosmology don't need to contradict each other. There do need to be some divine interventions for a reconciliation (like the issue of first souls), but that's sort of to be expected in a supernatural universe.

  • shedinator@xanga

    @esch99@xanga - I'm pretty sure anyone who argues Young Earth theory does NOT say G-d created Dinosaur Fossiles, they say He created Dinosaurs, some of which were buried and fossilized during the flood, the rest dying out in the new post-flood climate.  It actually is possible to believe in 6-day creation and believe in Evolution as the diversification mechanism.  It's just believing that evolution has caused different breeds, not entirely different species, to spring up from the ancestral ones.

  • woodrowwilson@xanga

    I believe that the story of creation and Adam and Eve are Jewish myths passed down from generation to generation to help explain the world and humanity. Now, myth is a dirty word in Christian circles, usually meaning 'untrue.' I don't believe this is the case. There are still plenty of truths to take from this story. God DID create the universe. God DID create us in relation to him. And we were effed up from pretty much the beginning. Just because something wasn't meant to be taken literally doesn't dilute its power.

  • another_rebel_without_a_cause@xanga

    I was dissapointed in you when I read the title. Turns out it was (probably) just a switch of the first two words.


    This is one of the only arguments for creationism that I've read without thinking it was absurd. Let's hear it for logical middle ground rather than flat out denial of science

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