@la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga - the "why so much bickering" wasn't targeted at you...it was primarily targeted at the people being dumbasses towards you...Personally, I appreciated your comments and agree JMS's comments aren't particularly logical.
much love
-Lenny

if your dad gave u such a book ...why can't he help you?
Dating is just as serious as sex bc you give your heart,,,this is the real issue. You don't want someone in her heart besides you,,,, sex & dating does this.

Courtship is a time where a couple meet within parent or elders homes to see if they are ready or would like to marry... this way you are never alone or aloud to step into each others "space".   I understand what you are saying but do you get me in saying that if she has had sex before but has repented it is as if it never happened? And that you are not to hold it against her? 

Think on Rohab she became the gg?gMother of Jesus ... I just want you to look at your attitude on this. Would it please the Lord?....ask Him before you answer...

@jmsnooks@xanga - Actually, none of my comment had anything to do with whether I have had sex before....it has to do with how you view women and choose women and judge people.  I am a 47 year old widowed mom who has been happily married, but I have now been raising my three children alone for the last 13 years, so my situation has nothing to do with it.  You are definitely not in my playing field, but then, I don't have a playing field.  I have three children to raise and they are my priority, not finding a mate.  I don't choose to remain single because of not finding a man, with or without virginity (which would be very unlikely at my age; most men have been married before anyway, and I wouldn't expect that)  I choose to remain single and celibate because my children are more important.  Someday, if God chooses to put the right man in my path, perhaps I will get married again. I'm not going to go looking for it with a checklist in hand, because that never works.  I also believe in courting, not dating around.

The only offense I take is that you are setting yourself up to be judge and jury, you don't seem to have a forgiving heart, you don't trust that God knows who's best for you, and you seem to condemn people because of sin, when you yourself are a sinner.  As Christians, we can't do that.  We are ALL sinners and fall short of the glory of God.

Just your description of your former girlfriends says it all.  They had "defects.'  One was "perfect."  Nobody is perfect.  Everyone is fallen.  They had to put up with your behaviors and personality, too, which may have explained why things didn't end up so well.  It's a two-way street.

This whole discussion almost seems absurd.  People have gotten upset over other peoples' comments and people are hotly debating for their viewpoint. 

Here is how I feel, if you are truly forgiven for your sins, does it matter if you are still called a vrigin or not?  You have already been forgiven.  It is God's place to forgive you, not mens'.  If a sin, whether it is extramarital sex, deceit, or any at all, it is God's to forgive and what label you have been given by people is not what matters.  A christian is not someone who is without sin, but someone who has their sins forgiven and now tries to live a sin free life.  Everybody fails.  It is for God alone to judge others. 

And that being said, a marriage is not only based on love, it is a commitment that is not only physical, it is spiritual.  There is nothing wrong in someone trying to seek out someone that they feel has the same spiritual values as themselves whether or not we agree with whatever criterion they are using to make that choice.  It is a commitment that lasts a lifetime and there should be some thought put into it as to what you want out of it. 

But as to whether or not you can still be called a vrigin, that shouldn't really matter.  Let God use to for his will. Do not try to cover up your mistakes or try to make them go away, but use them as an example of God's glory and forgiveness.

@musicmom60@xanga - Well I don't by any means look down on widows, but how many widows are there in my age range?  It's a non-issue in my case.  There is nothing dishonerable about being married and having kids. 

I don't hold the keys to Heaven.  So I'm not in a position to forgive random women for having sex.  If someone had sex then they sinned against God, not me (unless they were in a relationship with me and decided to have sex with someone else like my first girlfriend), therefore it is not my place to forgive them since they never did anything to me in the first place.  And by choosing to be selective I am causing harm to no one, there are probably just as many guys who have had sex as well as even guys who haven't but don't really care whether the woman had sex or not, so the playing field for t hem is still quite large.  I'm looking for someone who is as much like me as possible in terms of lifestyle.  That's all there is to it.

@jmsnooks@xanga - "I'm looking for someone who is as much like me as possible in terms of lifestyle."   I think it goes deeper than that, from your previous statements.  Read Proverbs on pride and arrogance.

@epiginoskete@xanga - I have read it and I felt sorry for that guy.  The only reason God made him do that was to provide an object lesson to Israel, which God repeatedly compared to an unfaithful whore.  There was another minor prophet, I forget what his name was but he was exiled in Babylon, that good used his wife for an object lesson.  In that case God killed his wife and told him not to grieve, and then the guy had to do wierd things like lie on his side for months and eat food cooked over animal poo.  God also killed a lot of people directly in the OT.  He also allowed for polygamy, which BTW has never been forbidden or specifically condemned or forbidden.  So the point is, we don't live in the OT anymore, and I choose to expect good from God rather than bad.  If something bad happens I usually try to blame it on something else other than God.  Some people think that everything happens because God orders it too, if you get in a car wreck then God made it happen for a reason.  No, if you get in a car wreck it's because you weren't paying enough attention to what you were doing.  You may have been on your cell phone or drinking or whatever.

@jmsnooks@xanga - True, we don't live in the OT anymore. Who said we did?

I applaud your tenacity in defending your point of view when so many disagree. Though I disagree with you on some counts, too.

"The only reason" clause holds the same implication that I took issue with in my previous comment. A lot about God and what He does -- and especially His reasons -- is mystery to mankind. Even humans often have multiple reasons for things they do. To say that there is only one reason God would do something -- or two, as in your previous comment -- is to give Him less credit than we give people.

Yes, an object lesson for Israel -- but an object lesson that meant what? I suggest perhaps you read it again, and consider the lesson behind the lesson, the themes of love and forgiveness -- the reasons why it was an object lesson for Israel. The why of it is what made the story pertinent then, and now.

@epiginoskete@xanga - I understand the allegory.  I would however only marry someone like that if God told me to and he hasn't told me too.  Therefore I'm in the clear.

I have heard of this, and all I have to say is its not biblical, so I personally think its of the world and not of God. Yes God forgives us when we ask Him, but He doesn't take us back to where we were before we committed the sin. I don't remember who said it, but someone told me that our virginity does not have a master reset button, like on a P.C. it just doesn't happen, and to be honest I don't think I would want God to give me my virginity back, not because I don't regret not saving it for my husband, but because it would change everything I have experienced up to this point. While it is a sin, it has, in part, made me who I am today and colors my perspective on many aspects of life.

Thats just kind of weird actually, you can't be a virgin again, physically or spiritually, you can be cleansed I guess. I would never ask for it, I had premarital sex, with those other than my spouse and I feel weird about it, but I dealt with it and moved on. I didnt think it would be that big a deal to me but once I met my husband, I wished I could have been pure for him, he didnt mind and we are happily married, but I guess you just have to put the past behind you and move on and just ask for forgiveness, not to be a virgin again, thats going a little overboard in my opinion

@la_faerie_joyeuse@xanga - Don't worry, I'm not talking about surgical hymen restoration. Deception and denial would make for a bad start to a relationship that is supposed to be intimate and permanent.

The pain within that does not cease
A yearning for a holy peace

Her flesh united to another
The very thought to make me shudder

How beautiful she is to me
I  can’t accept, to let it be

A night of lust of nothing more
The innocence lost years before

Now is she mine, ALL of her
I cry for years that once she were

In my hand a stone to throw
Angry with I do not know

Married we are soon to be
Yet one flesh I cannot see

Only Christ can make her whole
In body, spirit, mind and soul

My eyes to open this I pray
To see her holy on that day