Tuesday, 01 July 2008
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Christians at the Bar: Yea or Nay?
So God, Jesus, and a man walk into a bar....
Throughout my college years, I have met and/or seen many of my Christian counterparts in bars and clubs, myself included. I always had one of two reactions: 1) "What are you doing here?" and 2) "Hey...! It's good to seee you! Um... This is awkward."I will admit, I ignored God a lot through those years so that I could have my "fun" without Him while I was out. Ironically, the majority of the time, I'd go out with my Christian friends. We would all egg each other on and encourage having a great night with a great buzz. I did a lot of that my freshman through junior years of college; by the time senior year came around, I had sobered up and realized that graduation was right around the corner and I'd have to behave like an adult. It was at this time that I also came back to Jesus. To be honest, I was never the type of person to drink heavily or do really crazy things while out; it was always about simply having a good time and relaxing a bit from all the long hours of studying that we'd put in. So when I came back to God, I started questioning my behavior and what other people had thought of me during those years that I frequented the bars and parties with my friends (who after I moved away and quit partying, also quit hanging out with me.)
Looking back, there's some things that I'd do differently, but at the same time, all those things contributed to the perspective I have now. Not everyone who goes to the bar is out to get wasted and act a fool; some of them were just like me - simply out to spend some time with friends, and it happened to be a bar.
Now that I'm out of college, I definitely have cut back a lot on going out to the bars. Occasionally I will still go out to a bar with friends just to catch up and hang out a bit. When I go on Facebook these days, I'll see pictures from fellow Christians who are just starting out their college years going to bars and clubs. It makes me think about the decisions that we make as Christians and whether or not others question our beliefs when we show up at places like bars and parties. My mentality now is: We are set apart from the rest of the world. When we show up at a bar or a club, aren't we just telling the world that we're just like them and we can do the same things they can? So then it seems as though we're not set so much apart from the world if we do these things.
My question: Although it's not right for Christians to frequent bars, clubs, keg parties, etc, is it okay for Christians to occasionally drink at a bar? (By occasionally, I mean once or twice a month.) Does it make a difference whether you're going out with Christians or non-Christians?
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Comments (166)
@mamma_sez - In a society that equates having "fun" to be accompanied with booze, should not Christians, who are supposed to be living holy lives, think twice about the witness they portray to others by even being slightly intoxicated or by going into bars and taverns for fun?
Far too many youth, about 5,000 each year, are killed on our Nation's highways because of booze. More than will be ever killed in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Perhaps if we used the millions of dollars that "Christians" spend on booze each year, to give to our churches, ministries, or missions, we would not have the spiritual decline we have in America and churches, missions, and ministries would have better funding?
While all things are permissible to the Christian, not everything is beneficial.
How can we sense the Holy Spirit when we are even slightly inebriated? Are we not to be filled with Him instead?
While wine was seen as a blessing of God in the Bible, it was because it was seen as a food and crop, and not a source whereby you were to drink just to drink.
More families and children are harmed by alcohol in America than all other drugs combined. If this is true, why then should Christians support an industry that is not truly necessary in the life of a believer and causes so much more harm than good?
To try and equate booze with eating a steak is simply not on the same level. And yes, we can use Paul's admonishment in 1 Corinthians for the use of booze in the life of a believer. If we went by your reasoning, we could not use most of the New Testament for sins and would have to only use specific examples when we all know this is simply not true.
If God permeates all of your life, then your life is perfectly open for all to see and weigh in the light of Scripture, correct? Then if your witness to those who are weak just goes by the wayside when you want to do what you want when you want to do it? Or are we as believers in Christ to be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world whereby even the ungodly world gives God glory because of our holy living?
Want more examples?
@PastorBlastor@xanga while I think you raise some really good points and I appreciate your thoughtful and logical responses, I would prefer to stick to the bible. There is much wisdom to be had about the way to handle alcohol within it's pages and coupled with some common sense I think the message is clear.
Tonight I was re-reading Galatians 5 in my bible study group.
Our conversation was brought to mind as I read.
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For
the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the
Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with
each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and
envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before,
that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
The acts of the sinful nature include drunkenness.
I think the answer is clear.
Drunkenness is the sin.
Drinking alcohol is not.
Going to bars is not a sin- being drunk is.
If a believer goes to a bar and is not Godly, is not the salt/light and is not living their lives as an act of worship to God, then there is a problem. The same way there is, when he/she is driving their car, keeping house, in the work place or on the golf course.
I have no problem going to a bar, for where ever I go... Romans 12:1 is my guide. As for everybody else, that is between them and the Lord.
@mamma_sez - Thanks for sharing. It was actually suppose to be a response to someone elses comment, but I didn't know about the replying nor that italics don't seem to show up. *Shrug*
But bless you!
@Tenuto40@xanga - that's ok, I understood that, just trying to be helpful
Have a great day!
x
Romans 14. That's where it's at for this one.
We went to a bar for the first time with my wife's co-workers. It was a little awkward since we refused to drink. Not that we think alcohol is a sin on it's own, it's just we never drank and don't see any good reason to start.
I would have to say no, simply because you have to think about the people at the bar/club/party, and not just the people you are going with. I don't remember the reference, but there is a section of scripture (I think its in Romans, but don't quote me on that) that says we are not to make a weaker Christian stumble. You really don't know who is there, or who knows you are a Christian.
Let me give you an example. I go to what is considered a "mega church" but I'm pretty involved so I know a lot of people personally. I went with a bunch of my non-Christian friends a few months back to a bar. I had a drink in my hand when someone from church walked in. I didn't know them, but they knew who I was. This person came over and we were talking, and she asked if we could go outside, so I politely obliged, and she convicted me (lovingly of course) of drinking.
I wasn't drunk, in fact the drink I was holding had been my first. She told me that there was a friend of hers there who also knew who I was and had a problem with drinking. When this person saw that I was drinking she felt that it was okay to start drinking and had become quite inebriated, and had called her friend (the person I was talking to) to come and get her.
I haven't picked up a drink since that night, not because I have a problem with drinking, but because I don't know if there are Christians around me who do have a problem with it, or even non-Christians for that matter. Not to mention when we go out with non-Christian friends who know we are Christians. What kind of example do we set for them when we drink? I think its perfectly fine to go to these places, but don't drink. This way, not only do the people around you learn by example, but you also have a built in designated driver for those who choose to drink. And you also still get to have fun with friends.
You can be a Christian and go to a bar. It's alright to have fun with your friends and family... AS LONG as you're doing it in moderation.
Very true what Allen said.
I think overall, it boils down to discernment and prayer over the matter, checking yourself if there aren't any other motives, knowing what you and your brothers/sisters need, and thinking of your non-Christian friends. Actually, now that I think, I guess it really boils down to is: who is being served and blessed.
Whenever I find that I feel awkward I ask myself why. Is it wrong to have a good time dancing at a club or chatting with friends under the influence? Is there something wrong with my mind set that causes me to feel awkward? What does God have to say about this? In the situation of bars and clubs I found the parable of the shrewd manager to be helpful (Luke 16). As long as I don't break a commandment I find that there is very little wrong with being under the influence, besides the fact that it can be a bit harder to keep the Lords commandments, but I find parties as opportunities to make friends and spread the gospel. After all, "The master commended the dishonest manager because he acted shrewdly. For people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light." (Luke 16:8) I really enjoy alcohol (not to get wasted, I'm a dark liquor drinker and a bartender), dancing, and meeting new people to spread the word to, and I don't think I'm doing anything wrong.
Thanks for another place for me to share my humble opinion.
I think it boils down to how you spend your time God gave you. Some on the mission field. Some in ministry. Some with friends and fellow Christians in an atmosphere of fellowship. And others drinking in bars letting their little lights shine. Little lights. Flickers. Embers. Not every human activity is geared towards praise. But every human activity will be judged by what is not seen. The heart.
@Opposite_Way@xanga - hey I agree with you. if you go into the world today and ask Christians if they go witnessing in bars. I think the answer would be no. There are a lot of other places to hang out with friends beside a bar. In proverbs in the bible it says " Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. come on people if you are a true, strong Christian and know your bible then you wouldn't drink at all not even once a month.
Although I do not drink myself, I do not see anything wrong with Christians going to bars, clubs, etc. Like you said, as long as them are not out to get wasted or "act a fool", then there isn't much harm done. It's when a person passes that line from having fun to strip dancing on the counters, the problems begin.
Besides that, every person goes through life and does things they later look back on and say "maaaaybe I shoulda done that a little differently", but also like you said, those experience helped to develop your current perspective on life and the rest of the world.
there's nothing wrong with drinking...as long as you know your limits!
The key to this to me is if we are there to spread the gospel or just hang out or party as a band or with others. If your spreading the gospel that's entirely different. But otherwise we all know that in bars the alcohol gets going and so do tempers, filthy language, sleezieness, fights, arguing, tough guys, guys hitting on girls and girls hitting on guys and often those are already spoken for, sexual attire throughout, drunkenness etc. It's a bar... I just don't see how that helps the Christian to be in that atmosphere. You hang around with pigs and you get muddy.
Tony, I don't think Bono is a good example. For instance there's simply no reason to swear to spread the gospel. That's just plain silly and wrong.If Christian bands play in bars I'd hope it were to spread the gospel. But I can't imagine the bar owner going for that. Kills his clientel off...
I'd like to see some scripture that would say contrary. I pulled some that I think might be interesting.
Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
You see a good bit of verses 19 - 21 in bars and sadly not verses 22 - 25. Are we there to correct that or just hang out in it?
Mark 7:20 (Jesus speaking) He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "
romans 13:13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
1 Corinthians 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[b] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
Notice how often drunkenness is associated with all the other immoral things above which many of them are also associated in bars along with the drunkenness.
This is Paul talking about holy living. Read this and see if after reading it that hanging out in bars is something you think Paul would be condoning.
Colossians 3:1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[b] 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
12Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
In a bar there's a lot of "filthy language" and sleezing, sleeze talk, sleeze dressing etc. but Paul said: "rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips" but in a bar with people drinking you'll find lots of this going on. Just what he said to rid ourselves of. Do we think instead that we'd find the opposite of which Paul encouraged us to do which was to "clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. " That's not going on in the bar. just the opposite is. Sexual impurity, lewdness, drunkenness and much more which is exactly what so many of the verses above were telling us NOT to do.
I don't profess to know it all. But i think our best option is to go to God's word and see what it suggests we do, where we hang out etc. as Christians. Going there to save people is one thing. Going there to hang out with them I can't see as what we're to do.
God bless,
Dave Byers
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No. Would you want to go to a church where the Pastor sits around at bars drinking alcohol? Even if it is only a few times a year. It's not ok for him or anyone. The bible says that anyone who drinks strong drink is not wise and we are told also in the bible to be wise with our decisions.